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Murphy and the Bricks

Gound move/relocations

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Ok so Wet Spam arevoff to the Olympic Park, it struck me, that whilst this will probably be a good move for them as in increased capacity and better facilities. What about thos businesses around Upton Park that have probably only managed to stay afloat because of 20k+ people being in that vicinity every match day. Take Norwich for example say we were to move from FCR out to UEA or Broadland Business Park, what would happen to the likes of the Mustard Pot(Fat Cat & Canary) or The Complete Angler. Are these places compensated for loss of business. Norwich is not on the scale of say Arsenal, West Ham, Man City in view of businesses around the ground...sorry for rambling just asking the question.

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[quote user="Capt Bassong"]Ok so Wet Spam arevoff to the Olympic Park, it struck me, that whilst this will probably be a good move for them as in increased capacity and better facilities. What about thos businesses around Upton Park that have probably only managed to stay afloat because of 20k+ people being in that vicinity every match day. Take Norwich for example say we were to move from FCR out to UEA or Broadland Business Park, what would happen to the likes of the Mustard Pot(Fat Cat & Canary) or The Complete Angler. Are these places compensated for loss of business. Norwich is not on the scale of say Arsenal, West Ham, Man City in view of businesses around the ground...sorry for rambling just asking the question.[/quote]

 

All of the staff would be able to relocate to the railways as they''ll need load more staff to man the new station and the extra trains.

 

 

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Wouldn''t want Norwich to leave the Carra it''s a proper ground with character.

The river end needs refurbishment and a new stand at the city stand and that will do us for the next couple of decades

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[quote user="DDD In The Fine City"]Most of the pubs would be fine I think, being there probably wouldnt be pubs on the business park would just mean a train to the ground instead of the walk, anyway it''s not happening so don''t let it worry you[/quote]

 

The people who work at the business park and those in Sprowston & Thorpe will walk to the new ground using new bridges and travelator style walk ways.

 

 

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Halfords would probably relocate to Thorpe Broadland business Park with the large influx of pedal cycles using the new cycle racks at the ground and a decent florist would be needed for the platform floral displays at the new rail stop.

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I am not saying that I would want us to move, but the land at Carrow Rd must have a prime retail/residential value due to its location, enabling us to perhaps fund the purchase of a new site and the building of a new stadium. This may be a more attractive option than developing the current stadium and the new stadium could be built whilst still playing at Carrow Rd, thus avoiding the problems of moving those in the City stand if this were to be rebuilt?

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[quote user="Metal Militia"]I am not saying that I would want us to move, but the land at Carrow Rd must have a prime retail/residential value due to its location, enabling us to perhaps fund the purchase of a new site and the building of a new stadium. This may be a more attractive option than developing the current stadium and the new stadium could be built whilst still playing at Carrow Rd, thus avoiding the problems of moving those in the City stand if this were to be rebuilt?[/quote]

 

The new stadium will be paid for by the UEA and by selling the naming rights.

 

 

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[quote user=" Jim Hacker"]Wouldn''t want Norwich to leave the Carra it''s a proper ground with character.

The river end needs refurbishment and a new stand at the city stand and that will do us for the next couple of decades[/quote]

There isn''t a financial case for re-development of Carrow Road. If a new City stand was to cost £30 million for example and that provided 6000 increase in capacity all sold as season tickets for an average £450 per season say than the increase in ticket sales would be £2.7 million per season which is a payback of around 11 years. If we stay in the Premier League this extra revenue is going to be peanuts compared to the TV revenues of £100 million plus assuming all the tickets are sold. Expansion of the ground has, on this basis, doesn''t seem attractive.

Should we be relegated then the extra revenue becomes a bigger percentage of turnover assuming season ticket sales remain at the 26000 level based on all the extra capacity being sold or sold as casual tickets. Now the risk would be that we could maintain support at that level.

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[quote user="Crafty Canary"][quote user=" Jim Hacker"]Wouldn''t want Norwich to leave the Carra it''s a proper ground with character.

The river end needs refurbishment and a new stand at the city stand and that will do us for the next couple of decades[/quote]

There isn''t a financial case for re-development of Carrow Road. If a new City stand was to cost £30 million for example and that provided 6000 increase in capacity all sold as season tickets for an average £450 per season say than the increase in ticket sales would be £2.7 million per season which is a payback of around 11 years. If we stay in the Premier League this extra revenue is going to be peanuts compared to the TV revenues of £100 million plus assuming all the tickets are sold. Expansion of the ground has, on this basis, doesn''t seem attractive.

Should we be relegated then the extra revenue becomes a bigger percentage of turnover assuming season ticket sales remain at the 26000 level based on all the extra capacity being sold or sold as casual tickets. Now the risk would be that we could maintain support at that level.[/quote]

The last figures I saw from the club, a year or so back, were that the capital cost of the 6,000 or so extra seats would be £30m, to be paid back at £2.5m a year over 20 years, so a total of £50m.That doesn''t make much of a short-term case for expansion, but there is a long-term case. Firstly, take The Jarrold expansion, doubling to 8,000 seats. That caused financial problems but all paid for now. For the next, say, 30 years those extra 4,000 seats, even if not used all the time, represent pure profit. And that is without factoring in extra revenue from catering and commercial. So with a doubled City Stand.Secondly, the TV money argument is flawed. The eye-watering figures make some fans go all starry-eyed, but the truth is that everybody gets the TV money, we usually get less than most, and in any event it goes in one door at Carrow Road and straight out the other in higher wages and transfer fees.Where we could gain a financial advantage over the kinds of clubs we are in competition with in the bottom half of the table is by extra ticket sales and associated revenue from expansion. The excellent Swiss Ramble recently published two charts, for overall revenue and for ticket sales, for the Premier League in the 2013-14 season. With any luck these will come out:
In both cases even a smallish rise in income from expansion would further distance ourselves from the bottom clubs and push us into mid-table. In the long term.

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If they stay in business because of 19 games a year, they probably aren''t very good businesses. I''m sure they could handle the team moving and still stay busy.

A few seats between the goal lines would be nice.

Wherever the stadium is located, it''s not just NCFC that has to use the place, so when it''s rented out for other events, that money would also help pay for expansion or a new place.

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Thanks for the charts Purple very interesting - our total gross income this year should be in excess of £80M if your figs are correctWhat you appear to be ignoring is that we would have to close the City stand for 6/12 mths while nthe development took place - where would those season ticket holders go -It wont happen

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[quote user="Gunthorpe"]Thanks for the charts Purple very interesting - our total gross income this year should be in excess of £80M if your figs are correct

What you appear to be ignoring is that we would have to close the City stand for 6/12 mths while nthe development took place - where would those season ticket holders go -

It wont happen
[/quote]

 

Giant airships hovering over the ground on match days.

 

 

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[quote]

 user="As my login causes problems [ :o) ]"]Surely you should be looking at towns/cities without a premiership team who have a wealthy backer and would move us there. I quite fancy becoming Staines Canaries FC.[/quote]

 

Who is the wealthy backer in Staines?

 

 

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Finance is finance but there is an emotional reason to expand as well and the unknown effect of having an extra 3K-4K people, better atmosphere etc- would that help us scrounge a few extra points at home and thereby increase our chances of staying up/progressing?

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[quote user="Crafty Canary"][quote user=" Jim Hacker"]Wouldn''t want Norwich to leave the Carra it''s a proper ground with character.

The river end needs refurbishment and a new stand at the city stand and that will do us for the next couple of decades[/quote]

There isn''t a financial case for re-development of Carrow Road. If a new City stand was to cost £30 million for example and that provided 6000 increase in capacity all sold as season tickets for an average £450 per season say than the increase in ticket sales would be £2.7 million per season which is a payback of around 11 years. If we stay in the Premier League this extra revenue is going to be peanuts compared to the TV revenues of £100 million plus assuming all the tickets are sold. Expansion of the ground has, on this basis, doesn''t seem attractive.

Should we be relegated then the extra revenue becomes a bigger percentage of turnover assuming season ticket sales remain at the 26000 level based on all the extra capacity being sold or sold as casual tickets. Now the risk would be that we could maintain support at that level.[/quote]

If ground expansion makes so little financial sense then why are Chelsea looking to drop half a billion pounds on increasing the capacity of Stamford Bridge? Granted they are going from 41k -> 60k but even on a per seat basis they are paying over £26000 per seat compared to our mere £5000, I can''t believe that they earn over 5x the amount of revenue per seat to us.

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what would happen to the likes of the Mustard Pot (Fat Cat & Canary)

I''m doing a disco at The Fat Cat and Canary on the 24th of this month - WBA at home. So please don''t mention the move to BBP or the lovely Mr Hodgkinson may cancel...

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Im with Tumbleweed  on this, i know nothing about the financial side of this, but purely from an atmospheric point of view an extra tier on the city stand is badly needed imo. It would help and add to the atmosphere of home games. Also that side of the ground just looks so small and out of place these days. No idea if the old stand would have to be completely demolished or if an extra tier could just be built atop the present stand.Also dont know about the question of how much of an increased capacity city should or could accomodate, id be happy with an extra 3 or 4000, which would take Carra to 30 or 31k, anything 30 or above would be nice, if for nothing else it would make it a bit bigger than Portaloo Road lol. The population of Norwich is increasing rapidly these days, the 2011 census for urban Norwich was 213,000, add those from the rest of the county and beyond and imo there is a big case for increasing the capacity as soon as is possible, finances permitting of course.Interestingly Wolves have had similar story with Molineux , and their ground looks even more hideously lop sided than Carrow Road. I see their owner has just put Wolves up for sale, so maybe their fans are hoping for a billionaire foreigner to come in, but as Villa and WBA have been both up for sale for years  that part of the world doesnt seem to be attractive to investors. Just hope in our neck of the woods something positive happens sooner rather than later.

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[quote user="Gunthorpe"]Thanks for the charts Purple very interesting - our total gross income this year should be in excess of £80M if your figs are correctWhat you appear to be ignoring is that we would have to close the City stand for 6/12 mths while nthe development took place - where would those season ticket holders go -It wont happen[/quote]I wasn''t ignoring that aspect. It just isn''t part of the long-term argument for expansion. As to how it could be managed, I imagine in the way it was when the old South Stand was knocked down and turned into The Jarrold.That (as it would now) involved relocating about 4,000 fans (myself included) and I suspect most were season ticket-holders, as in the City Stand. And then the ground capacity was several thousand fewer than it is now, so with less room for manoeuvre. It would be difficult, but I doubt impossible.As to our income this season, it should be roughly what it was in 2013-14 - ie between £90m and £100m.

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If they want to redevelop the City Stand, a  way has to be found that doesn''t disrupt the whole stand.  Extending the stand backwards rather than upwards would mean the extension could go over Carrow Rd, leaving the present stand largely as it is, just removing the roof durng the close season, extending backwards (leaving the access road in place as a tunnel as at grounds like Old Trafford), with lifts and steps in the supports at the back of the extension.   The new roof could be supported by an arch, thus taking away the need for drastic foundations.  This would mean some disruption behind the scenes, maybe the shop would have to move and the Gunn Club relocate or close, while the new foundations are made for the arch at either end of the ground. 

The extension going backwards would go up to the height of the N&P and the Barclay at either end, making CR a consistent height all the way round.   This logstically is the only way imo that the City Stand will ever be redeveloped, as the club cannot possibly cope with things any other way, as relocating the whole of the city stand supporters if the stand was to be completely rebuilt, is impossible.

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We''re not going to be spending £90m on players, nowhere near, if our past record is anything to go by. If we stay up I suspect we''ll be hoovering up the Robbie Brady and Matt Jarvis type players who will serve us well under AN, allow us to consolidate and expect commensurate rather that silly money wages. So we should have plenty of cash to put towards a new City Stand and a hotel demolition.

Frankly my view is that the Board should just knuckle down and get on with it. Football is a business, but not one where normal rules apply so I don''t agree that a stand must be self financing per se. Lets say you had an extra 2K casual tickets for sale and that each one went to a new fan (which they won''t but lets pretend they do for the maths). Over a Pl season that''s another 38K fans, a proportion will become members some will buy shirts and City wallpaper for their rooms and some may become fans for life and be part of the future pipeline of supporters. What price for that extra "customer" base? A stagnated ST base isn''t, to me, the way to get future fans through the door.

Lets also say that the extra 3-4K generate the extra noise and intimidation and that opposing teams now fear more to come to CR than Palace or Stoke. What price those draws turned to wins and loses turned to draws? Just two draws to win could be so important at the end of the season, can that extra crowd help? I think so.. You can''t buy those points on MasterCard.

And what about those who may need relocating? Well, IF that happens (and you could probably house most in the casual seats now available if necessary, and restrict away fans for a while) you could offer a free season ticket the following year or some form of sweetener. But you know what when I had a ST I would probably put up with some disruption, annoyed though I might be, for a few months knowing that I get a better stadium experience in the long run. And, to put it bluntly, you can''t make an omelette without breaking eggs so a little disruption- need to just get a sense of priority and deal with it. Or move to Cumbria.

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There are also ways to lessen the impact on the City Stand fans... firstly given that that side of the ground doesn''t face a residential area, why could we not have construction going on 24/7, which while it may cost more, would probably cut the 6 1/2 months construction time down to about 4. Also, use prefabricated modules as much as possible which can just slot into place - in China and elsewhere, construction firms are building everything from hotels to stadiums using these methods and they can be put up in an incredibly short time frame. We don''t seem to have caught on yet in the UK though. If we properly planned it out, used modern techniques and timed the construction right to take place in pre-season, asked the FA for our last 3 games of one season and the first 3 of the next to be away from home; it could be done between the end of April and early September with maybe only a game or two having to be played at reduced capacity.

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Ground expansion is a no brainer despite what some say on here!

We are currently getting capacity crowds every game and have been averaging 24,000+ every season since the Jarold stand was completed in 2004 and this includes one season in the 3rd Division when we averaged just under 25,000!

Our average crowd to ground capacity ratio is one of the highest in the Country something like over 98%!

I''d say our fanbase is higher than both Southampton and Leicester who play in 32,000 capacity stadiums and average over 30,000. Look at their crowd figures when they aren''t playing in the top flight for proof!

Even the tinpot outfit down the A140, would average at least 27,000+ in the top flight and look at what they get in the Championship!

Norwich is getting bigger population wise and while we are in the top flight people will always come. This is why I think if ground capacity was increased to 35,000 I honestly think we''d average 32-33,000 in the top flight.

There is also the "build it and people will come" and Premiership football drags people out of the woodwork, some of whom don''t go a lot on football factors but even without them Norwich Citys crowds since 2004 prove that stadium expansion is viable and necessary!

Another factor is that when your ground capacity goes over 30,000, you have to provide the away team with 3000 seats should they require it. At the moment Norwich can allow for League games just over 2500 seats for away games when we are averaging about 27,000. + 500 = 27,500. Finding another 6000-7000 fans for some games wouldn''t be difficult especially as increasing ground capacity would mean more season tickets would be sold.

The last few years have seen League games become a bit of a closed shop for season ticket holders and the more dedicated casual fans. The less dedicated casual fan and families with young kids have struggled to get in cause a family with young kids won''t be split up as the kids won''t want to sit on their own. This has led to the present scenario where many local youngsters are being very limited in their visits to Carrow Road and getting kids involved at a young age is when you get many of them hooked for life!

The older fans amongst us will remember a time up until Cardiff 2002 when you could be in the City after 2pm on a Saturday when Norwich were at home, decide last minute to go to the game and walk up. These people are still about but don''t bother now. Just look at the U21 games and cup games where a lot of the crowd are non season ticket holders!

The more lucrative TV deal coming into force next season will mean income streams will go up even higher and if Norwich are still in the top flight over the next couple of years then this will be good time to replace the City stand with a bigger/better version or put a 2nd tier on the Jarold. Personally I''d prefer the 2nd option cause this could be done without reducing the current capacity.

The necessary expanding of Carrow Road is like starting a family or buying your 1st house or getting a bigger house in that if you thought about it too much you''d never do it cause the costs seem unbearable but in reality once you do it you adapt and eventually things workout!

Those with the "we should never expand" theory are shortsighted and with this attitude we''d of never replaced the old South stand in 2003 and even before that left the old main stand, a burnt out shell in 1984, never replacing and we''d of never replaced the old River end open terrace in 1979/80. In fact going back further than that we''d of opted to stay at the Nest in 1935 with a much reduced capacity and would of hindered the clubs growth!

Look at how the club has grown since building the Jarold stand!

I think the club would grow even bigger with a capacity over 30,000, not that it would be a problem as I think we a club that playing in a ground at least 10,000 short of what the clubs size and fanbase justifies!

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Unfortunately your contradiction explains why there is no rush, or need for expansion. You state that non season ticket hofders cannot get a ticket, yet then tell us that a lot on non season ticket holders turne up for U21 games.Why ? Are they not supposed to have been excluded and so have gone elsewher /. Likewise the muddled headed thinking about previous stands and ground. There was no choice over the Nest. The league would not allow us to stay. Similarly the old South Stand would not be given a license. The old Main Stand was burned down. Those developments were forced upon us. There is no force at the moment. In fact with the ticket income becoming less of a percentage in the PL it makes absolutely no sense. More so as we have no guarantee of that income, but would have of that debt payment. The real motto is be successful and they will come. 40,000 at Wembley in May. 30,000 at Portman Road when they had been away from the PL for more than decade. There are no lost fans, nor fans without a habit.

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Many non season ticket holders and members go to U21 games and cup games cause its cheaper and have more chance of getting in. If the ground held over 30,000, I''m sure a fair few of these would buy season tickets and many others would go to 1st teams games more often!

I''m not muddled about old stands and grounds whatsoever!

I tryed to explain that with your thinking we''d of never built the Jarold stand. It was possible to keep the old south stand but its likely the capacity would have been reduced and it would of cost a 6 figure fee to bring it up to scratch. Instead we took the more expensive but right move in building the Jarold stand which provided us with increased capacity which has been well used, a brand new improved ticket office, improved disabled facilities and got us corporate income and rental from businesses leasing office space which the old South stand didn''t provide! - With your attitude we''d still have the old south stand and ground capacity would be under 21,000!

The old main stand burnt down in October 1984. With your thinking we''d of just left it an empty shell cause the capacity of the remaining 3 sides would have sufficed!

The Nest was still used by the club until the late 1940''s for reserve games I believe. I''m sure the club could of kept it for 1st team games if the capacity had been restricted?

Like others say there is the emotional reason to increase capacity. The ground capacity to average crowd ratio is one of the highest in English football and those who are clued up about it will tell you that Carrow Road is ones of the grounds with the most proven stats which says that increasing capacity is justified!

Many clubs with smaller fanbases than us play in bigger grounds including those down the A140 so getting a bigger ground than Portaloo Road would be good and like I said in my last post in the top flight we'' easily average 30,000!

With your thinking we''d never increase ground capacity and would in fact be a smaller club today than what we actually are!

Luckily for Norwich City, David McNally doesn''t share your opinions and believes a vital part of Norwich City growing and fulfilling their undoubted potential is by increasing capacity to over 30,000. They have been right in stalling on doing this thus far, but the longer we stay in the top flight the more likely we will see it actually happen!

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