Twenty Is Plenty Protest.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

And you still won''t reply to the points on my post Ivor. You and Thommo just seem intent on making it a personal issue.

Despite what our regular away traveller would have you believe, spending what you can afford to to follow the club is not a sacrifice that deserves a concession. I know because I have done this for many years at a time. The fan who has been priced out of all games would probably be more worthy of a concession.

[Thomo 0]

I''m not trying to make anything Personal Nigel, I was just answering your question.

[Ivor Know 0]

Nutty - I''ve read your post from yesterday and I believe that I have answered your points.

I can''t speak for either the FSF or the BE Projekt. I have nothing to do with either.

This campaign really isn''t about whether away fans are, as you put it, more deserving of a discount than home fans.

It''s about ticketing prices generally across the game.

The Premier League has previously acknowledged that away fans are a "special breed" and one of the Premier League''s "unique strengths". (The quotes are taken from the PL''s own promotion material.)

The FSF has launched their Twenty is Plenty campaign as a specifically targeted protest about ticket prices for fans. They perceive it as a "winnable battle".

Now, believe it or not, I can understand why that would sit uncomfortably with some fans, but, realistically, and this is my personal view, it really is unrealistic to expect a universal reduction in prices for all fans at this moment in time.

Hopefully, you at least understand where I''m coming from, even if you don''t agree with my views?

[nutty nigel 7,506]

I can''t quote the post because I''m on my phone. But why won''t you two respond to any of the points I made in it rather than just take cheap shots about me somehow being jealous of other people getting concessions.

And is there an email address where I can invite your group to the PL quiz?

[nutty nigel 7,506]

Thanks Ivor. I don''t agree because, as you say, away fans are already receiving "special treatment" from the PL themselves. Why use that group again?

[Ivor Know 0]

Nutty - Please refer to my previous reply above.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="Ivor Know"]realistically, and this is my personal view, it really is unrealistic to expect a universal reduction in prices for all fans at this moment in time.[/quote]It IS realistic to expect fans groups to work on behalf of ALL fans Ivor, not just a select few. How can they claim to represent fans when their protest excludes 90% of their membership?

[Ivor Know 0]

Lappin - not sure why you directed your question to me? As I said previously, I''m not a member if either the FSF or BE Projekt (who have also mentioned above that they don''t have members).

I may have sympathies for some of the causes that they promote, but I would never claim to speak on their behalf.

These are my personal views so I can''t answer your question.

[TIL 1010 4,717]

[quote user="Thomo"]TIL, We are a group of supporters, who the club recognise as a supporters group. Well if three of you qualify as a supporters group i might as well get The Nelson Numpties recognised by the club....talk about bigging yourself up Thomo.If the club are happy with our structure, i''m happy with it. But you have no structure Thomo.People within the club know who are and have methods to contact us if and when they wish to, that goes for Joe Ferrari, the ticket office, right up to Mr McNally. Yep indeed but everybody has access to their e-mail addresses so nothing new there. We tend to use Twitter and facebook rather than the website as it gets far more hits.May i suggest then that you close your website as in it''s current state it does not show you in a good light.[/quote]

[The Ghost of Percy Varco 0]

Keep up the good work Thomo.

It seems sad that those who once ran a far bigger supporters association seem so keen to belittle others with good intentions perhaps to bask in their former glories. Strikes me as rather pathetic.

[Thomo 0]

Mr Tilson, I''m not surprised that the members of Canaries Trust and the other groups tend not to reply to your questions on here.Your past dealings as a Chairman with NCISA clearly puts you in a better position to talk about being in a supporters group, than my short period working with my friends on things that we feel passionate about does. I respect that, but don''t lord it over me because you''ve been there and done it yourself, it makes you look a c...Let us learn from our own mistakes and we''ll learn as we work along side the other groups. We will form our own structure (or not!) in our own time. For now, please forgive me if i tend not to respond to any of your questions or posts in the future.Thanks,Thomo

[nutty nigel 7,506]

Ivor, thanks buddy. I do see where you are coming from if its that you believe £20 for away fans is good starting point for a campaign to get cheaper tickets for all. I totally disagree though. I would definitely target the fans who are priced out of all matches before I fought for a concession for those who can afford much more. I don''t believe our club can do this unilaterally because it would put us at a disadvantage. And its only 5 or 6 years since our club did away with undeserving concessions.

You guys obviously see it differently which is fine as long as your views are not seen as "giving fans a voice".

Thommo, would you be interested in entering a Barclay end project team in the quuz?

[Ivor Know 0]

Nutty - the £20 figure isn''t mine, it was chosen by the FSF when they launched their campaign, way back when, probably because it gives them a catchy strap line.

If I''m honest, when I first read it, I actually thought, "that''s too cheap."

However, that''s what they decided to go with and I guess you have to start somewhere.

It''s gained momentum simply because of the latest huge TV deals. The clubs have no justification to say they can''t afford it.

I agree, NCFC can''t do it unilaterally. That would be a huge own goal for us. I believe that it''s a football wide problem which needs to be addressed by all.

I can understand that there''s alternatives out there for concessions. The problem is they don''t have any meaningful backing at the moment.

Can''t offer any suggestions there, I''m afraid.

[TIL 1010 4,717]

Well now Thomo you using the C word says far more about you than it does me and it is plainly obvious you have been talking to The Trust or one person in particular who shows distain for the whole Pink Un messageboard as can be seen by posts put on the '' other site ''. Not just me who asks questions of the Trust but then again being selective in who and what you respond to does not make you the voice of the fans in my book . Democracy is the way forward and if there is a refusal to answer questions that is no way to reach out to us all. Now off to the game and Italy for 5 days first thing in the morning so no doubt i will see what you have been up to next week.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

Quite happy to agree to disagree and at least neither of us now believe the other is motivated by personal gain or jealousy.

I''m gonna put up Rays Funds and go to the game now. It was only a tenner and kids for a quid :)

Both you and Thommo are more than welcome to leave a selection for our two Pupettes. They would be pleased with your help.

[mj 0]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one NN!

Without concession, the price I pay to support my team (and I believe there is a distinction between a supporter and a fan) is to sacrifice other hobbies, interests, holidays, luxuries etc.

My team is my number 1 priority behind my family (rightly or wrongly) and any help to follow them is valid.

I am a firm believer that supporters influence performance. We have a very special away attendance, without it, I don''t believe we would be as successful as we are.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

Don''t see what we''re disagreeing about MJ. I''ve spent many seasons doing what you do. I''ve had away season tickets for years when I could. I haven''t given up hobby''s though because there''s nothing I''ve wanted to do more. My first away game was Wolves in 1971 and my last, apart from Wembley, was Brentford last season. In the intervening years I''ve had many seasons where I got to virtually all the games and many when I couldnt go very often.

There''s no point in having a Willy measuring competition to see who''s spent most following the team. There also no point in a measuring competition to see who gave up the most becase you''d win. I never gave up anything because there was nothing I wanted to do more.

I totally agree that supporters influence matches and find the lack of support in modern stadiums a big loss to the game. Carrow road is still quite good for support but because of the season ticket situation we find more negativity amongst the support during bad times. This doesn''t happen so much with the away support who generally get behind the team regardless.

So I think we''re broadly in agreement. But what I don''t understand is why you feel you deserve a concession. Especially as the difference will either be made up by other supporters or taken from the player budget which ultimately affects us all.

[Thomo 0]

Nigel, Pub Quiz is a possibility, when you thinking?

[ca 1]

Think Nutty was talking about our social club quiz on Oct 21st see the social club thread. I know the forces group are looking for a couple more people if you want to join their team

[Thomo 0]

Thanks City Angel, i will get in contact with the lads and Nev.

[As my login causes problems [ :o) ] 0]

An interesting debate (far too few on here recently hence why I seldom post) and one worthy of input.

Firstly I agree that this campaign would be one in tune with the BEProjekt but cannot see how it falls within the remit of some of the other organisations getting behind it. The campaign is in my opinion misguided as it doesn''t recognise the price of entertainment generally and football specifically where Ryman league now costs £9 to stand in the cold on the touchline so a comfy seat with facilities to hand is going to cost more before you get to the quality of the entertainment.

Of course the biggest issue is supply and demand and until clubs are faced with empty stands and decide that a lower price might produce higher total revenue it just isn''t going to happen.

Lastly with a collection for penniless refugees happening at the same time most fans are going to find this protest a little distasteful so it will actually work against the image of anyone involved. Shame.

[lappinitup 629]

I have referred to this before but I think it''s worth repeating...Last night 5,500 Ipswich Town fans paid £45 per ticket to watch their reserve team play in a midweek League Cup game at Old Trafford.......http://www.sudburymercury.co.uk/sport/reaction_mccarthy_glad_he_stuck_with_the_fringe_players_and_kids_at_old_trafford_1_4245194Conversely, at last night''s game, West Brom brought less than 1,000 fans and yet tickets were only £10 and kids for a quid in the same competition. There were only 19,000 at the game in total. I think both cases highlight the fact that money is not an issue because if it was, Town fans wouldn''t have gone as they did in their droves, and Norwich v West Brom would have sold out. Cheap away tickets made absolutely no difference.The one thing we can all agree with on this thread is that we would all like to watch cheaper football but I still think as well intentioned as this protest may be, it is ultimately a futile gesture.Finally, I agree with the previous poster about this being an interesting and informative discussion (mainly) and whilst I don''t think it will change many people''s views, it does however set out clearly the debate from both sides.

[Ivor Know 0]

Face - I wasn''t going to contribute again to this thread, but, three of your points are worthy of reply.

First, this is an FSF organised event which open to all. No one has to belong to a particular organisation to join in. I don''t belong to the FSF, BEprojekt, Forces Canaries or Canary Trust. It happens to be something I have sympathy with for reasons explained before.

A quick look at the Canary Trust''s website also shows they''re members of the FSF, so it''s not too difficult to work out why they''re involved too.

Second, most other forms of entertainment don''t benefit from the backing of a £5bn PA TV contract. I have my own beef about how that money is divided up, but that''s another matter. That said, to compare Premier League prices to the Ryman, where clubs don''t have such benefits, it a tad nonsensical, especially as gate receipts, as a proportion of total income, are becoming more deminimus for most Premier League clubs.

Third, you may have missed it before, but the FSF actually announced this back in August, whilst the Premier League announced the Refugee appeal earlier this month, with collections timed for last weekend and this weekend. It just so happens that Norwich don''t play at home until the weekend after. It''s a coincidence that the two happen on the same date. Your distaste is misplaced at best, or show a lack of understanding at worst.

OTBC

[nutty nigel 7,506]

Face?!?!?!

 

Is that my old buddy "Two dots a circle and a waxing crescent"?

 

Good spot Ivor...

 

 

[ellis206 0]

[quote user="lappinitup"]I have referred to this before but I think it''s worth repeating...Last night 5,500 Ipswich Town fans paid £45 per ticket to watch their reserve team play in a midweek League Cup game at Old Trafford.......http://www.sudburymercury.co.uk/sport/reaction_mccarthy_glad_he_stuck_with_the_fringe_players_and_kids_at_old_trafford_1_4245194Conversely, at last night''s game, West Brom brought less than 1,000 fans and yet tickets were only £10 and kids for a quid in the same competition. There were only 19,000 at the game in total. I think both cases highlight the fact that money is not an issue because if it was, Town fans wouldn''t have gone as they did in their droves, and Norwich v West Brom would have sold out. Cheap away tickets made absolutely no difference.The one thing we can all agree with on this thread is that we would all like to watch cheaper football but I still think as well intentioned as this protest may be, it is ultimately a futile gesture.Finally, I agree with the previous poster about this being an interesting and informative discussion (mainly) and whilst I don''t think it will change many people''s views, it does however set out clearly the debate from both sides.[/quote]I''m sorry but that''s an absurd comparison. Smaller teams always take big numbers when they play massive clubs because it''s a rare big day out for them. They''ll be happy to pay top dollar for individual games as it''s a once in a lifetime opportunity for some clubs fans. You have to remember, for an Ipswich fan who is under 18, they wouldn''t remember or wouldn''t of had the opportunity to see Ipswich play at Old Trafford.Whereas Norwich and WBA play each other regularly and it isn''t seen as a big fixture for either set of fans. By your logic, Ipswich and Carlisle would regularly take between 4000/5000 fans every away game regardless of ticket prices, the reality is, Ipswich struggle to take 500 or more on a midweek away fixture to a Leeds or someone. The FSF have done a lot of good work and has caused debate amongst the football elite, with the huge influx of money in the game right now, isn''t it about time fans were rewarded with a capped ticketing price for away travel? If me and my missus were to have gone to both Anfield and Upton Park, we''d have paid £180 in total just for tickets, add a further £120 for travel, and £50 for food and drink, we''d have spent a good £350 in 7 days. It''s too much, fans need to start benefitting from the money in football right now because without fans football wouldn''t exist.

[ellis206 0]

[quote user="lappinitup"]I have referred to this before but I think it''s worth repeating...Last night 5,500 Ipswich Town fans paid £45 per ticket to watch their reserve team play in a midweek League Cup game at Old Trafford.......http://www.sudburymercury.co.uk/sport/reaction_mccarthy_glad_he_stuck_with_the_fringe_players_and_kids_at_old_trafford_1_4245194Conversely, at last night''s game, West Brom brought less than 1,000 fans and yet tickets were only £10 and kids for a quid in the same competition. There were only 19,000 at the game in total. I think both cases highlight the fact that money is not an issue because if it was, Town fans wouldn''t have gone as they did in their droves, and Norwich v West Brom would have sold out. Cheap away tickets made absolutely no difference.The one thing we can all agree with on this thread is that we would all like to watch cheaper football but I still think as well intentioned as this protest may be, it is ultimately a futile gesture.Finally, I agree with the previous poster about this being an interesting and informative discussion (mainly) and whilst I don''t think it will change many people''s views, it does however set out clearly the debate from both sides.[/quote]I''m sorry but that''s an absurd comparison. Smaller teams always take big numbers when they play massive clubs because it''s a rare big day out for them. They''ll be happy to pay top dollar for individual games as it''s a once in a lifetime opportunity for some clubs fans. You have to remember, for an Ipswich fan who is under 18, they wouldn''t remember or wouldn''t of had the opportunity to see Ipswich play at Old Trafford.Whereas Norwich and WBA play each other regularly and it isn''t seen as a big fixture for either set of fans. By your logic, Ipswich and Carlisle would regularly take between 4000/5000 fans every away game regardless of ticket prices, the reality is, Ipswich struggle to take 500 or more on a midweek away fixture to a Leeds or someone. The FSF have done a lot of good work and has caused debate amongst the football elite, with the huge influx of money in the game right now, isn''t it about time fans were rewarded with a capped ticketing price for away travel? If me and my missus were to have gone to both Anfield and Upton Park, we''d have paid £180 in total just for tickets, add a further £120 for travel, and £50 for food and drink, we''d have spent a good £350 in 7 days. It''s too much, fans need to start benefitting from the money in football right now because without fans football wouldn''t exist.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

I agree with all your points Ellis. Apart from the clamour to ONLY include away fans. Nobody has yet explained that to me except wishy washy statements about having to start somewhere. For every away fan who is struggling to be able afford to go to away games as well, I will give you a home fan who''s struggling to afford to go at all.

 

 

[As my login causes problems [ :o) ] 0]

I feel at a disadvantage Ivor in that I don''t think I know who you are, ah the days of anonymity live on in Pink Un land.

My three points:

The relevance to organisations, I fear I am in danger of rekindling a fire that was best left out in that I do feel that where an organisation is set up with a certain rationale - standing at grounds, share ownership, socialising etc it should stick to that. Otherwise it has a duty to go back to its members and seek to change its constitution and name and then publicise that to the wider public. If that has happened for those organisations I apologise but suggest the publicity bit fell short!

The second price related point and your argument on TV revenues is of course totally wrong. It suggests that as a shop keeper if I had a lucky win on the lottery/horses I should immediately reduce the price of my bread. Or maybe charge extra to my customer who had a lucky win. Life as we all know is not like that, however most share their good fortune with those less fortunate and tend to do it in charitable ways like for instance our own club does through the CSF.

My third distasteful point may be for a small group but where I am going to an event that not everyone can afford and the refugees certainly can''t I would feel it very difficult to explain to them why my £200 trip to Stamford Bridge should only cost me £160 whilst throwing a couple of quid in a bucket to feed their family !

As has been said in the thread it matters to people when they add up the money they spend on away trips but it is a choice, and a choice that includes the burgers, beer, etc which is their choice to spend just don''t expect to be subsidised by people who have no choice in it.

[PurpleCanary 5,553]

[quote user="As my login causes problems"]I feel at a disadvantage Ivor in that I don''t think I know who you are, ah the days of anonymity live on in Pink Un land.

[/quote]A surname of Problems and forenames of As My Login Causes - that must have been a fun christening.

[Ivor Know 0]

Dave - we don''t know each other, I just happen to know who you are because you''ve previously disclosed the your name. Not that it matters in the context of the debate.

On your organisations point, these seem to range in size from "one man and his dog" (to use a rather demeaning badge used previously above) to a national organisation.

I doubt the former has any constitution and, whilst the latter certainly probably does, none of those likely to take part are a "single issue" group, as a quick read of their respective websites will reveal. Your point hardly seems relevant in the circumstances?

Your reasonings on the second point is just bizarre. Your shopkeeper doesn''t have a multi billion TV deal for starters. If he wins the lottery, he does so in a personal, rather than a business capacity. If he chooses to share his winnings through his business, that''s his choice.

The underlying question is whether football clubs, which are businesses, with turnovers in excess of £100m PA, are doing enough with regard to ticket pricing? The underlying view seems to be "no" even if there''s not consensus as to how this should be addressed. However, you need to start somewhere, rather than do nothing.

With regards to your third point, as I said previously, this is just down to timing. There is no reason why either should be cancelled and, I suspect, many who will be in the protest will also contribute to the Refugee appeal. I know I will!

OTBC