Does the fault lie in defence?

[Woodman 92]

Yes, our much maligned defence has had a slating from pretty much everyone this season - not just yesterday - but for me, our midfield has to shoulder plenty of the blame.

For at least 3 of the goals yesterday, we had the opportunity to either make a tackle or concede a foul when Newcastle were on the attack. Howson, Dorrans and Tettey all failed to do so. I''d like to think O''Neil, Mulumbu and Vadis could offer a little more steel in there.

For me, O''Neil was our best player in the WBA cup match, so I hope he will be considered this weekend, in place of Dorrans. I''d also like to see Wes back in, in place of Howson.

[westcoastcanary 0]

Agree Woodman -- except that I''d change "plenty of the blame" to "most of the blame". It''s not as though yesterday was a one-off either. The writing has been on the wall from the opening game of the season -- over-commitment to attack without sufficient regard to the unprotected space behind.

[CJ 0]

Yes of course you blame the defence , they were never outnumbered just couldnt do the basics ie watch the players not the ball.

And the problem we have is we do not have enuf competition for back four places something most of supporters going on about all summer. What can Alex do now he only has R Bennet to bring in is there any other cover not a lot I have to say sheer stupidity. Only takes injury red cards to say Bassong and Martin what do we do!!

We have tons of players up front and midfield but so little at back.

It is going to be long hard winter !

[morty 0]

[quote user="Woodman"]Yes, our much maligned defence has had a slating from pretty much everyone this season - not just yesterday - but for me, our midfield has to shoulder plenty of the blame.

For at least 3 of the goals yesterday, we had the opportunity to either make a tackle or concede a foul when Newcastle were on the attack. Howson, Dorrans and Tettey all failed to do so. I''d like to think O''Neil, Mulumbu and Vadis could offer a little more steel in there.

For me, O''Neil was our best player in the WBA cup match, so I hope he will be considered this weekend, in place of Dorrans. I''d also like to see Wes back in, in place of Howson.[/quote]I have watched the goals a few times now and agree with a lot of what you are saying.What really stands out is how far our defenders back off players, and their reluctance to put a tackle in.Re midfield, its all very well playing a midfield destroyer, but that is going to affect our pressing game in attack, and before you know it, we''re right back in the Hughton era.But yes, its the whole teams responsibility to defend.

[Horse Renoir 1]

Some of us have been trying to get this point across in amoungst the completely overblown outrage yesterday.

Our whole team was shockingly lazy out of possession yesterday, I don''t know whether we were told to hold position of if they just couldn''t be bothered to cover ground but it was the whole team''s fault we conceded so many. Bennett or Wisdom playing wouldn''t have made the slightest bit of difference when exposed like that.

Our style of play can only work if we out work the opposition or we''ll be caught out of possession too often like yesterday. Lambert made the tactic work with a defence of Drury, Whitbread, Ward and Naughton and a much weaker midfield in front of them because to a man, they worked their arses off every game off the ball to cover ground and stop the opposition.

We looked complacent, hopefully that result shows the players they aren''t as good as they think they are so they buck their ideas up a bit. If we get out-worked next game as well I''ll be really concerned

[Ray 111]

CJ,

Imagine you are a defender, in a back line of 3 (cos your FB''s are nowhere to be seen as they are bombing forward), then for whatever reason we lose the ball, the oppo''''s midfield and strikers run at you at pace, they sprint passed our own midfielders who are jogging at best, if not stood watching, you are running backwards as they all rush at you in acres of space, if you''re not outnumbered it would damn well feel like it?

You''ve now got to make decisions, do you pick up and stick with one player, do you come out to tackle an umarked midfielder rushing into your box, do you try to predict where the ball is going and mark space, do you try and rush across to cover your fellow defender who has been pulled out of position, etc. etc.

Yes it can be argued the last line of defence was at fault, but defending is a team game, a striker needs help to score goals, from every area of the pitch, as the defender needs help to defend. If we are going to rely on the few defending the many, whilst retreating, we are always going to be in trouble.

[Grant Holts Moustache 104]

I don''t think it''s fair to blame the defence on this one, collective blame is the order of the day because bar Mbokani who was the one bright spot from yesterday ( he looks quality!) the team looked like strangers and no one seemed to know their role. The defence left so exposed time after time by a midfield that had no shape. The number of times Newcastle could just play a simple straight ball to transition from defence to attack was criminal at this level. That put so much pressure on the back line to try and deal with players flooding forward they ended up retreating and just trying to hold some basic shape but the runners from midfield were not coming back to help. We were also very naive in the way we pressed from the midfield. On lots of occasions a single man would charge out to press and Newcastle just played simple balls around them or turned slightly as they charged past leaving space to play within.

Alex Neil had a bad day too. I don''t get why he insists on playing Howson everywhere but his best position. He is a great box to box midfielder but at best a Championship player in the attacking role and on the right. To win games in this league you need your best players in their best roles. His is in the centre by Tettey or Mulumbu when fit. Taking off Tettey even though it was one of his worst games was also just crazy. I know we were chasing a game but we were looking the most solid we had during the whole game at that point and looked in with a chance. I feared the worst when I saw the board go up for that sub and was the first time since Whittaker in the middle against Brentford I wondered what Alex Neil was doing!

I also don''t get why Hoolahan didn''t start? His form has been incredible this season, everything that has been good about the team has revolved around him and so many times yesterday we lacked someone who could control the tempo and provide a simple option. MoM against the world champions a week or so ago. Now not good enough to start away against a struggling Newcastle team. Strange to say the least from Alex Neil. Am sure he will learn quickly though as he seems to do so when he makes mistakes.

[Woodman 92]

I''d add Redmond to Mbokani in terms of players who''d escape blame for yesterday. I can forgive him losing the ball when trying to attack, but the rest of our midfield has to be more aware of what might happen IF the attack were to break down. For the 3rd goal yesterday, I think we had 7 players ahead of the ball and once we''d lost it, we were in trouble.

Hopefully though, that''s something Alex can point out in training this week and I do think we''ll see a slightly more cautious approach in future.

In the first part of the 2nd half, we did look a bit better in terms of keeping the ball, and it did seem a matter of time before we''d equalise, but that plan went out of the window once their 4th went in, and it all went completely kamikaze after that!

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="Dead Canary"]I don''t think it''s fair to blame the defence on this one, collective blame is the order of the day because bar Mbokani who was the one bright spot from yesterday ( he looks quality!) the team looked like strangers and no one seemed to know their role. The defence left so exposed time after time by a midfield that had no shape. The number of times Newcastle could just play a simple straight ball to transition from defence to attack was criminal at this level. That put so much pressure on the back line to try and deal with players flooding forward they ended up retreating and just trying to hold some basic shape but the runners from midfield were not coming back to help. We were also very naive in the way we pressed from the midfield. On lots of occasions a single man would charge out to press and Newcastle just played simple balls around them or turned slightly as they charged past leaving space to play within.

Alex Neil had a bad day too. I don''t get why he insists on playing Howson everywhere but his best position. He is a great box to box midfielder but at best a Championship player in the attacking role and on the right. To win games in this league you need your best players in their best roles. His is in the centre by Tettey or Mulumbu when fit. Taking off Tettey even though it was one of his worst games was also just crazy. I know we were chasing a game but we were looking the most solid we had during the whole game at that point and looked in with a chance. I feared the worst when I saw the board go up for that sub and was the first time since Whittaker in the middle against Brentford I wondered what Alex Neil was doing!

I also don''t get why Hoolahan didn''t start? His form has been incredible this season, everything that has been good about the team has revolved around him and so many times yesterday we lacked someone who could control the tempo and provide a simple option. MoM against the world champions a week or so ago. Now not good enough to start away against a struggling Newcastle team. Strange to say the least from Alex Neil. Am sure he will learn quickly though as he seems to do so when he makes mistakes.[/quote]

We got ripped apart when Wes came on.... not his fault of course but positining and shape went out the window to accomodate him...

How many would it have been had he started?

[Grant Holts Moustache 104]

I wouldn''t add Redmond to that one Woodman. Where as he had some good moments and a good finish, too often he made bad decisions and either held onto to the ball too long or just made the wrong pass. The one where he gave the ball away high up field and we conceded, his tracking back left something to be desired. He jogged back behind watching the play unfold and even though could see that it was a 3 v 3 and his help was needed just stopped and watched them go. Some extra effort there and we would have had an extra man and given us a little more chance of preventing the goal.

[Grant Holts Moustache 104]

Jas we got ripped apart not because he was on the pitch but because of who was off the pitch at the time. If he would have started we would have still had a protecting player so I don''t see how having him on would have made us more vulnerable. Also having a player like Wes means we protect the ball much better as he will often provide an option in situations that others do not have the courage to do so. If he started we were also more likely to have Howson playing his best position in the centre and alongside Tettey offering a bit more defensive nous than Dorrans does.

[westcoastcanary 0]

Woodman wrote:  "I''d add Redmond to Mbokani in terms of players who''d escape blame for

yesterday. I can forgive him losing the ball when trying to attack ........."Sorry, no, "trying to attack" is not a sufficient justification for risk-ignoring decision making. As I said on another thread, bravery is one thing, suicidal foolhardiness is quite another. When he had possession on the right of the Newcastle area prior to their third goal, finding his route into the box blocked he turned inside and ran along a solid Newcastle wall which gave him no clear sight of goal. So what did he do? He only had one thought in mind, to get a shot off, so basically hit and hoped. He should have retreated with the ball, keeping possession and allowing the rest of our over-committed midfield (and FBs) to regroup and go again.

[grefstad 0]

[quote user="Ricky Spanish"]Some of us have been trying to get this point across in amoungst the completely overblown outrage yesterday.

Our whole team was shockingly lazy out of possession yesterday, I don''t know whether we were told to hold position of if they just couldn''t be bothered to cover ground but it was the whole team''s fault we conceded so many. Bennett or Wisdom playing wouldn''t have made the slightest bit of difference when exposed like that.

Our style of play can only work if we out work the opposition or we''ll be caught out of possession too often like yesterday. Lambert made the tactic work with a defence of Drury, Whitbread, Ward and Naughton and a much weaker midfield in front of them because to a man, they worked their arses off every game off the ball to cover ground and stop the opposition.

We looked complacent, hopefully that result shows the players they aren''t as good as they think they are so they buck their ideas up a bit. If we get out-worked next game as well I''ll be really concerned[/quote]

This. Well said. Be ware, Morty might come soon with a insightful one-liner to try to discredit your good observations..

[morty 0]

[quote user="grefstad"][quote user="Ricky Spanish"]Some of us have been trying to get this point across in amoungst the completely overblown outrage yesterday.

Our whole team was shockingly lazy out of possession yesterday, I don''t know whether we were told to hold position of if they just couldn''t be bothered to cover ground but it was the whole team''s fault we conceded so many. Bennett or Wisdom playing wouldn''t have made the slightest bit of difference when exposed like that.

Our style of play can only work if we out work the opposition or we''ll be caught out of possession too often like yesterday. Lambert made the tactic work with a defence of Drury, Whitbread, Ward and Naughton and a much weaker midfield in front of them because to a man, they worked their arses off every game off the ball to cover ground and stop the opposition.

We looked complacent, hopefully that result shows the players they aren''t as good as they think they are so they buck their ideas up a bit. If we get out-worked next game as well I''ll be really concerned[/quote]

This. Well said. Be ware, Morty might come soon with a insightful one-liner to try to discredit your good observations..[/quote]Awww, poor Grefstad, did I make your knickers all twisty?Grow up mate.

[norfolkngood 1,086]

what we need is more power and pace in midfield someone who when we attack is on the edge of the box and then when we are defending again on the edge of our box our players don''t seem to have the pace to keep that up .

now forget his skill but steve gerrard done that so well and that is what we need I am not saying his skill level as we could not afford or get that but his pace and power is what we need

the defence is exposed by the gap in between the def / mid leaving other sides players running onto them

same as the strikers / mid gap is to big so when the ball is played up our striker doesn''t have to win it if the midfield is close enough to pick up second ball scraps but the gap is far to big due to not having the pace and power to go up and down with pace

[GJP 79]

It''s not all the defence to blame but when you let in 6 goals to the side bottom of the league your defenders haven''t defended very well - there''s no getting away from it.

Defenders are there to defend, funnily enough.

If you were a neutral looking at it would you think that looks a strong (or even just decent) Premier League defence? I think it looks the defence of a team that''ll struggle.

[Yellowbeagle 0]

Most of us acknowledge we have abit of a weakness in the back 4. Yesterday the midfield malfunctioned badly Tettey had an off day, but was still putting himself about, Dorrans and Howson who have worked hard in most games to press and win the ball back might aswell have stayed in bed for all the good they did. Still lets put it down to a bad day at the office. Players with pace and power who compete consistently at this level do not play for clubs our size it''s always going to be about team work with determination to win individual battles, double up and come out with the ball in 50/50s which to be fair has been there for most games, just not yesterday.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

I know that the job of defenders is to defend and attackers job is to attack. But that''s so simplistic and the PL really isn''t that simple. Teams defend as a team and attack as a team. In the first 9 games our emphasis has been strongly to attack as a team. In 2013/14 our emphasis was to strongly defend as a team. So far this season we''ve scored 14 goals. In the whole of 2013/14 we scored 28. But so far this season we''ve conceded 20 and in the whole of 2013/14 we conceded 62.

 

It strikes me we will be around the bottom 5/6 teams again this time with a goal difference of -20 or more. We probably do need to defend as a team more than we have been or certainly more than we did yesterday. But you can absolutely be sure that Alex Neil''s brief will not be too defensive. The board do listen to the fans whatever the fans may think and just 18 months ago the fans were adament that they''d rather lose trying to win games and wouldn''t tolerate setting up to be defensive.

 

 

[Salopian 1]

We have one of the worst defensive records in the Premiership, and that with various combinations in the midfield.

I have been concerned about Whitaker''s defensive ability soon after his arrival, and Martin lacks pace and height. The biggest disappointment has been Olsson. All these make good contributions going forward but are lacking in tackling and positioning at times.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

Its not all of the defence and certainly on Sunday probably the biggest problem was how exposed the defence were to counter attacks., particularly after the idiotic Tettey substitution.

However this defence consistently fails to mark properly. Newcastle had few other chances in the game other than the goals but every time they passed or crossed the ball into our box they were able to find an unmarked player. This is not acceptable and its not a new thing either - our marking from set pieces and crosses has never been quite right throughout Neil''s time at the club. We got away with it in the championship because we generally were on top in games and teams miss more chances but at the moment we are being punished quite ruthlessly in some games.

Whitaker has never been good enough defensively so its no surprise to see him getting done at the far post. Olsson for me was more of a surprise but in fairness he''s only just back from injury and was putting in a hell of a shift going forward on sunday so will give him the benefit of the doubt. As for Martin I generally just do not feel he has the instincts of a centre back when balls come into our area. He too often gets caught under the ball or the wrong side of his man and his movement away from the man with the ball for their fourth goal was extraordinary. However, him and Bassong seem to be marking space rather than the man so often that I do also wonder if we are employing some form of zonal marking system. I sisncerely hope not because they never seem to work.

I think for the next few weeks we need to go back to basics and look to be more solid. Hopefully Mulumbu comes in alongside Tettey and the fullbacks are instucted to be more disciplined. Ahead of that 6 I would have Wes, Redmond and Jarvis to give us some real pace and threat behind the striker.

[scrappy33 0]

Redmond needs to track back more often as this is not helping whits who is a good defender but needs help and should get help from the wide man.