Anyone anti Russell Martin isnt a Norwich fan.

[hogesar 9,657]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]I''m gonna second big toes reaction.

Competition my @rse. You don''t bid £9m to be on the bench behind Martin or Bassong.

lol[/quote]

Nope. You bid the going rate for a player, but no one knows how thing''s are going to end up with that player. There has been no suggestion that Martin has been, or would be close to losing his captaincy. There has been absolutely no suggestion that Alex Neil or any of the coaching staff are unhappy with Martin.

If, as you and bell-features keep stating, RM is not good enough for us, and is pretty much a mid-table championship player (your words), do you not think there would have been a massive priority to replace him? The last 3 transfer windows. And all the CB''s we got under Adams, none of them could displace Martin.

Laugh all you like, but I reckon I fancy my chances siding with an International Manager and his coaching staff, along with our manager who''s got us promoted and midtable in the prem (with RM in the side) - than siding with two numpty''s on a forum who like to analyse our highlights just to try and find a mistake from a CB and captain who''s been fantastic for us since he arrived.

[hogesar 9,657]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]So we''d have an outside chance of Europe if it wasn''t for Russell Martin. OKkkkkkkk...[/quote]

Good. It wasn''t just me that read that. I presumed based on his previous posts i''d automatically read something stupid which wasn''t there.

[westcoastcanary 0]

grefstad wrote: "The players got the will, yes, but lack the ability to play such an

ambitious defensive style (espescially Whitts, Martin, but got my doubts

on Olsson too."So the ability of our players is already cast in stone, none are capable of getting better with the aid of good coaching, positive encouraging leadership from the manager, and their own hard work? What a dismal, dispiriting view. Fortunately it''s not one shared by Alex Neil, who clearly thinks there is far more latent ability in our squad than you envisage. His message to his players is "You can do it and I want you to prove it to yourselves that you can".

[grefstad 0]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"]So the ability of our players is already cast in stone, none are capable of getting better with the aid of good coaching, positive encouraging leadership from the manager, and their own hard work? What a dismal, dispiriting view. Fortunately it''s not one shared by Alex Neil, who clearly thinks there is far more latent ability in our squad than you envisage. His message to his players is "You can do it and I want you to prove it to yourselves that you can".[/quote]

Well, first of all, AN has no other choice than to believe in the current crop of players he has got for his disposal. Lambert also did this, to great effect.

Yes, trust and belief can improve players a lot, even make average players look great, for a while. Not over time though, as quality (or lack of) will shine through anyway.

There is, probably, more latent potential in this squad than what we armchair managers envisage. I accept that. After all, we dont see the players in training every day.

But we see them in matches, and that''s what matters to us, as it''s the matches that decides points, and, ultimately, our fate.

But we all know that we tried to bring in better defenders this window. We failed, but there were (reportedly) big bids, and it can not be seen in any other way than that AN wanted an upgrade in central defence. Not more cover. Upgrade.

When the upgrade failed to muster, what can AN do? Yes, trust his remaining assets, and hope they can do the task.

History will judge if he is correct in trusting Martin to play himself out of trouble every time, or not.

I would hope for a bit more pragmatic approach at the back, to suit the personell we currently have, but will ofcourse accept that the manager thinks otherwise.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="nutty nigel"]So we''d have an outside chance of Europe if it wasn''t for Russell Martin. OKkkkkkkk...[/quote]

Good. It wasn''t just me that read that. I presumed based on his previous posts i''d automatically read something stupid which wasn''t there.

[/quote]So what we have an outside chance of qualifying for Europe with Martin in the side, is that what you two are saying?

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

Claiming we''re foregoing a potential place in Europe because Russell Martin is in the side. Desperate stuff from the scapegoat brigade

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="Wes Hooly Fan"]Claiming we''re foregoing a potential place in Europe because Russell Martin is in the side. Desperate stuff from the scapegoat brigade[/quote]Twisting words and ignoring facts, standard stuff from the head in the sand brigade. [;)]

[westcoastcanary 0]

grefstad wrote: "But we all know that we tried to bring in better defenders this window.

We failed, but there were (reportedly) big bids, and it can not be seen

in any other way than that AN wanted an upgrade in central defence. Not

more cover. Upgrade"I don''t agree that we know that. All we know is that we are rumoured to have enquired about a number of CBs and known to have made firm bids for two, including Koulibaly. We also know that the club were not interested in bringing in players just to make up numbers; anyone brought in had to improve the squad. That''s different from having to improve on/be an upgrade on a current first choice player. It may appear obvious to some that e.g. Koulibaly is a better CB than one or both of our current first choices, but that''s just their opinion and it''s presumptuous in the extreme to foist it on AN as being his opinion too.As for Martin having to "play himself out of trouble every time", words fail me. More accurate would be Martin playing his colleagues out of trouble on a far more regular basis.

[Ray 111]

If you are able to watch games after the event, and I say after because that is when we are most likely to be more objective, plus it gives us the opportunity to replay events, and if you can watch it from a ‘neutral’ standpoint (difficult to do I accept) you will see all of our players make misplaced passes, misplaced headers, missed tackles, etc. You will also see all of our players outthought/outplayed by the opposition, that’s what they are paid to do, unfortunately some mistakes are punished more than others and the deeper you play the more likely that is, the keeper being the obvious example. For example, the miss-hit pass by RM that led to the goal was no more miss-hit than passes by all of our players, it happened to lead to a goal, in and of itself it was no more miss-hit than any other pass, in fact probably better hit than one or two of our shots on goal.

It also helps if you have someone else available to atone for your error, so a miss-hit pass in midfield has the potential to be recovered by another midfielder or the defence (potentially 9 players) a miss-hit pass by a defender has the potential to be recovered by another defender or the keeper (potentially 4 players) and of course an error by the keeper, well he’s on his own typically.

All our players make errors, in some games some will make more than others, in other games their fortunes may be reversed.

The fact that a mistake by a full back does not lead to a goal may well be testament to the fact Seb, Russ and John cover, if Seb makes an error, and he does, and it does not lead to a goal it is probably because Russ and John cover, etc etc.

It may be that more of RM’s errors have led to goals than Seb’s, maybe this is because Russ does a better job of covering Seb than Seb does of covering Russ, or it could just be that Russ tends to be the last defender, therefore is in a better position to mop up Seb’s mistakes than Seb is to mop up Russ’s.

As fans we tend to see and focus on the last piece of the jigsaw, a stunning volley into the top corner, whilst great, may well be down to a superb run off the ball by another player, he tends not to get the plaudits, the scorer does, just as a defender making an error tends to get the blame, when in fact he may have been put under pressure by a colleague being out of position or a midfielder not chasing back, etc.

FYI, the stats from whoscored.com show the following from the Liverpool game (just our 2 CB’s).

Tackles = RM 3, SB 0

Interceptions = RM 4, SB 2

Clearances = RM 5, SB 6

Blocked Shots = RM 4, SB 2

They don’t include a stat for misplaced passes, however the pass completion %’s were RM 70.4%, SB 60.0%, so from that we could draw the conclusion that Seb hit more misplaced passes than Russ. RM = 19 successful & 8 misplaced, SB = 15 successful & 10 misplaced.

I draw no particular conclusion from the above other than it is a team game, a game in which all players make mistakes, a game in which we are performing well in at the moment and a game I am enjoying immensely, particularly when compared to our last season in the Premier League.

[hogesar 9,657]

[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"][quote user="hogesar"][quote user="nutty nigel"]So we''d have an outside chance of Europe if it wasn''t for Russell Martin. OKkkkkkkk...[/quote]

Good. It wasn''t just me that read that. I presumed based on his previous posts i''d automatically read something stupid which wasn''t there.

[/quote]So what we have an outside chance of qualifying for Europe with Martin in the side, is that what you two are saying?

[/quote]

No.

[hogesar 9,657]

Forgot to say thanks for the stats you''ve found their Ray. Again, one game''s worth of stats is relatively meaningless in the big picture, but it does show that RM was not our ''weak link'' in the defence on Sunday. Despite what a few on here have decided.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

Thanks for bringing this website to my attention Ray. I didn''t know of it''s existence. Some of the stats make very interesting reading indeed. It does suggest that in overall rating there is not too much to choose from between Bassong and Martin so far this season. The one fact that did stick out like a sore thumb to me though is that although he has made more passes, on average Russ plays four times as many long balls forwards as what Seb does. Bassong also has a higher pass success rate over the season so far 81.5%, which is only just behind Wes (83.9%). This would seem to fly in the face of the opinion of some that Martin is the ball playing defender.Also I completely agree with this sentiment: "a game in which we are performing well in at the moment and a game I am

enjoying immensely, particularly when compared to our last season in the

Premier League."

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="Iwans Big Toe"][quote user="hogesar"][quote user="nutty nigel"]So we''d have an outside chance of Europe if it wasn''t for Russell Martin. OKkkkkkkk...[/quote]

Good. It wasn''t just me that read that. I presumed based on his previous posts i''d automatically read something stupid which wasn''t there.

[/quote]So what we have an outside chance of qualifying for Europe with Martin in the side, is that what you two are saying?

[/quote]

No.

[/quote]I find your lack of ambition disturbing. If you''re after mediocrity may I suggest a trip to Portman Road, I think you''d feel at home as they seem to have mastered the skill of being average. Also there''s plenty of space for you.

[hogesar 9,657]

Nothing wrong with ambition. Sense of a realism and perspective is always useful though.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"]Thanks for bringing this website to my attention Ray. I didn''t know of it''s existence. Some of the stats make very interesting reading indeed. It does suggest that in overall rating there is not too much to choose from between Bassong and Martin so far this season. The one fact that did stick out like a sore thumb to me though is that although he has made more passes, on average Russ plays four times as many long balls forwards as what Seb does. Bassong also has a higher pass success rate over the season so far 81.5%, which is only just behind Wes (83.9%). This would seem to fly in the face of the opinion of some that Martin is the ball playing defender.Also I completely agree with this sentiment: "a game in which we are performing well in at the moment and a game I am

enjoying immensely, particularly when compared to our last season in the

Premier League."

[/quote]Oh and also when it comes to aerial battles Russ sits 81st in the league and Seb is 7th.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="hogesar"]Nothing wrong with ambition. Sense of a realism and perspective is always useful though.[/quote]Ahh the party line "prudence with ambition."Surely it should be the other way round if we are going to be challenging the top half in the future - ambition first, then prudence?

[nutty nigel 7,528]

Are we not challenging for top half now?

[hogesar 9,657]

Top half and Europe are two different things.

It''s pretty difficult to discuss something with someone who move''s the goalposts in every post.

[mrs miggins 0]

hogesar wrote the following post at 23/09/2015 8:14 AM:Nope. You bid the going rate for a player, but no one knows how thing''s are going to end up with that player. There has been no suggestion that Martin has been, or would be close to losing his captaincy. There has been absolutely no suggestion that Alex Neil or any of the coaching staff are unhappy with Martin.

If, as you and bell-features keep stating, RM is not good enough for us, and is pretty much a mid-table championship player (your words), do you not think there would have been a massive priority to replace him? The last 3 transfer windows. And all the CB''s we got under Adams, none of them could displace Martin.

Laugh all you like, but I reckon I fancy my chances siding with an International Manager and his coaching staff, along with our manager who''s got us promoted and midtable in the prem (with RM in the side) - than siding with two numpty''s on a forum who like to analyse our highlights just to try and find a mistake from a CB and captain who''s been fantastic for us since he arrived.

-------------------------------------

I''m sorry to say it Hog but you don''t seem to be a person thats read any of the arguing points against your view.

If you had read what I''d said throughout this thread you''d see that I agree that he wouldn''t lose his captaincy - as I say, he''s a fantastic captain for this club and a good player.

As a CB he is built as a modern day ball playing CB, the whole point of my argument is not only that I don''t think he''s that great defensively in the middle, but also that imo he''s better on the right - which also gets rid of Whitts in the team.

In your second paragraph you made the ridiculous point of not replacing him - as has been stated before, it''s not for the want of trying, I still think Koulibaly would''ve been a great signing. We know that AN tried to bring in an expensive ball playing CB....he wouldn''t have been bought to sit on the bench - again, like Brady (though he would''ve been cheaper) you don''t pay a lot of money to have the intention of putting them on the bench - Its not like Dorrans who was £3m and who will be in and out all season.

You also say that I think Martin ''is not good enough for us'' - again, completely false and it would be good if you read through the thread again I feel. I think he''d be great on the right.

On the third point about analysing mistakes. I didn''t just do this with martin did I, I did it with the team. It doesn''t take long does it to watch a 12 minute clip and jot down the time as you go along, however I can understand if facts hurt. The point of it was to show if there was any reason to why I (or anybody) believes Martin makes more costly mistakes than other players on the pitch - its because its true. Go and watch the clip if you haven''t already seen it, you might be shocked, he did actually make quite a few mistakes.

[TCCANARY 263]

 

Russell Martin is 6th (SIXTH) in the Sky Sports Power Rankings. I have no idea how significant the Sky Sports Power Rankings are but I enjoyed watching him play on Sunday.

 

 

[GenerationA47 751]

Reading this thread I''m appalled by the reasoned, interesting and relatively respectful debate going on about a key Norwich issue which is by no means clearcut.

I''ve half a mind to report the lot of you

[mrs miggins 0]

:)

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

Mrs Miggins must lead a very sad life to always look on the negative side of things. Who knows, maybe the constant criticism targeted on Russell Martin fills an emotional void you may have.

Personally I''m delighted with the start we''ve made and am enjoying it throughly. I don''t need to continually target certain players. Every single player we have is capable of a mistake and I will support them wholeheartedly whenever they pull on a Norwich City shirt. Unfortunately we''ve adopted a load of miserable sorts who instead of celebrating a decent draw at one of the biggest clubs in the country are targeting all their negative vibes onto a player who actually did really well on Sunday, certainly no worse than any other player for us. Sad really

[Ray 111]

Mrs M,

I get your point re you preferring to see RM at RB and someone, my have been you, gave us some stats about clean sheets with RM at RB as opposed to CB, which appear to support your view. However, when he played RB he probably didn’t need the right CB to cover him as much as our current RB’s need him to cover them, therefore the CB’s could concentrate more on playing in the CB position, also under CH our FB’s were never allowed across the halfway line, in fact I can recall CH screaming at RM on a number of occasions to get back, now we play more attacking football that is bound to open us up more at the back.

Your point about more costly mistakes may well be true, however RM doesn’t have RM covering for him as the others do and he normally makes far more passes and has far more touches than the other defenders, we can only assume this is under orders, he also normally plays more longer/attacking passes, so one would expect he may make more errors, most of the time our other defenders and goalkeeper pass the ball to RM for distribution, so by definition they making passes with little risk.

So if the team is playing under orders and using RM as the ball distributor then we can only assume he is the best at it, we cannot of course see any data around what would happen if SB was given the job, but on the basis AN sees them all week, I guess SB would not perform as well as RM?

Something else that intrigues me is the fact that Seb, although the taller and potentially better with his head than Russ, hasn’t score for over 2 seasons, yet they both go up for corners, etc. In that period Russ has scored 5 and looks like he could be on for double figures this season, well let’s hope so anyway!

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="Wes Hooly Fan"]Mrs Miggins must lead a very sad life to always look on the negative side of things. Who knows, maybe the constant criticism targeted on Russell Martin fills an emotional void you may have.

Personally I''m delighted with the start we''ve made and am enjoying it throughly. I don''t need to continually target certain players. Every single player we have is capable of a mistake and I will support them wholeheartedly whenever they pull on a Norwich City shirt. Unfortunately we''ve adopted a load of miserable sorts who instead of celebrating a decent draw at one of the biggest clubs in the country are targeting all their negative vibes onto a player who actually did really well on Sunday, certainly no worse than any other player for us. Sad really[/quote]

[mrs miggins 0]

think its both IBT.

Link for Ray - Martins great goal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkkd7l5dJI8

In response to the happy clapper ''wes hooly fan'' saying that I''m a grumpy, sad emotionally unstable wreck because I''m giving an opinion on where we''re weakest in our squad, I''m not sure where to start, perhaps I''ll leave that to other people. Perhaps you should look at the post before where GenerationA47 has commended the posters so far by not resorting to pettiness and keeping on topic - as it makes their argument look extremely weak.

I''ve tried to argue my point just like others have repeatedly and respectfully on this thread, yet I can''t help but feel that because you''ve dedicated your whole post consisting of two paragraphs simply on me I can''t help but feel that its a touch hypocritical calling me sad. I don''t mind a few put downs to show that you have a superior view to mine, but to spend your time writing a post on, not how I have the wrong view, but how sad I am to have this view, is certainly an interesting one.

The point about not celebrating our point v Liverpool or where we are in the league just shows really how stupid you are.

Hopefully we can get back to the point of how you and Hog are trying to make out as if anyone who thinks we can do better than Russell Martin at CB is not a norwich fan eh?

[mrs miggins 0]

Good to see us get the first clean sheet of the season, more to come hopefully.

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYSrjXhvIZc

[canary_1902 0]

No Russell Martin and as a result we look more assured defensively and keep a clean sheet.

Hogesar you moron.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

I am beginning to wonder what Gen47 was referring to....

Anyway, it was a welcome clean sheet but were any of you other clean sheet welcomers at the game?

Perhaps Rudd was the difference? Or maybe no Tettey? Or maybe no Russ? Or perhaps there was little significance to other games and the clean sheet was just welcome.