Anyone anti Russell Martin isnt a Norwich fan.

[hogesar 9,667]

[quote user="ViewfromtheJarrold"][quote user="hogesar"]Don''t like it? Tough, binner.

No, he''s not the greatest defender we''ve ever had, but nor is he the massive liability people claim he is.

We will concede goals this season. Some will be a mistake from him, some will be a mistake from others. We''ll score goals too. And as already seen, some of them will be from the Norfolk Cafu himself.

What I''m saying is, when RM scores, I see the delight on his face. I see his passion for the club and I hear it in every interview. When we concede or lose who looks gutted? Him. But who''s first to come and applaud our fans? Him.

I like him. I''m happy for him when he scores and plays well because he''s obviously a great bloke. I don''t give a single toss that van dijk might have a better percentage of interceptions. Van dijk could well be...a d*ck.

Football should be something to be enjoyed, to be passionate about. Which is exactly what RM does. Which in turn makes me enjoy watching him play.

Delighted for him today. The background story of his last 24 hours only confirms everything I thought about him before.

Club captain.

Club legend.[/quote]Really Hogesar! What a complete moron you really are.........So if I''m getting this right ''Anyone that is anti Russell Martin is not a Norwich fan''.......WRONG!Unfortunately Hogesar its not your decision, you don''t decide who is a Norwich fan and who is not dependent on whether they like your favorite player or not!I can only assume you are a young teenager who takes his football away when somebody doesn''t agree with you or doesn''t let you be captain!  Either that or your mental age is that of a teenager and you are a grown up and a bit, shall we say, ''slow''?Its a ridiculous statement now go back to class its time for your ''special class''[/quote]

I will presume you''re trying to identify me as having an Intellectual Development Disorder or a Learning Disability.

Classy.

And no, you''re not a Norwich fan.

[havemyhowsonit 0]

[quote user="tellitasitis"]So he got driven to Liverpool in a nice big coach, taken home again, became a Dad and then got a flight to Liverpool, at the clubs expense or do you think because he is such a top bloke he coughed up himself? Any idiot can become a Dad it''s not rocket science. He then managed to play a game of football for 90 minutes, wow,must be a machine !

It''s not a tough life being an extremely well paid footballer, so why so much credit ? He loves the club, he claps the fans, what do you expect your captain to do?

Not sure I have heard too many players slagging of their own club.

The issue is he is not good enough at centre back, the fact you started this post shows there is an issue with him.

The odd goal does not mean we can keep allowing below par performances at the back.

No one here hates the bloke they just want a better replacement, and yes there are a number of players who are not really stepping up to the mark, Redmond for one.

Long season ahead but lets keep our fingers crossed that we keep battling away like we did yesterday.

p.s when I saw the title of the post I to thought you must be about 12. Think before you type young man.[/quote]

Another helmet alert!

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

I dont see anyone being anti-russell martin;   top bloke,  committed to the club,  consistent performer,   articulate and clearly destined to be a coach.

 

What I do see is concern about his ability to defend at prem level without having matchly laspses in concentration or decision making that increase the possibility of conceeding a goal, at what feels like, beyond an acceptable level.  Richie De Laet was jettisoned for fewer mistakes. 

 

Should he be in the squad,  undoubtedly the club are better for him being here esp with his personal skills but also as good squad cover (as BJ would have provided);  do we need better as a starting choice centre back?   Againt the answer is yes.     But it appears that mean I am no longer a norwich fan.  

[/quote]^^This^^It seems that a few on here (Hogsear, Buh, Lapps etc...) have decided that if you have anything critical to say of Russ, it automatically means that you are anti-Norwich. And whilst their support of the club is admirable they have become quite blinkered when it comes to the subject of Russell Martin.The facts remain that we have still not kept a clean sheet this season, we have conceded more goals than every team, bar Sunderland and only six other teams have allowed more shots on goal. Is that all Russell Martin''s fault? No, but he does have to shoulder a

fair portion of the blame as many of his mistakes this season have been

costly. Had he not given the ball away cheaply (after two attempts to do so!) to Liverpool at the start of the second half, the goal that he scored would have been the winning goal and won us two extra points, instead of saving us a point. Which brings me onto my next point, it is brilliant that he is scoring goals, but that is not his main responsibility. For example, if CamJam was not posing a goal scoring threat, yet was providing much needed defensive cover people would say (rightly so) he''s not doing his job. But if he is weighing in with a goal every 3 or 4 games and helping us stay defensively sound at set pieces he is doing his job and is worthy of his spot in the side. This is because he is a striker and his main responsibility is providing a goal threat. Russell Martin''s main responsibility is as a defender, and I feel that he is a less than adequate Premier League central defender. He is however a very decent Premier League right back, especially in an Alex Neil side that relies on the fullbacks providing an attacking threat, which has always been one of his best attributes. And until Norwich go on a run of games where they don''t concede sloppy goals and Martin begins to refrain from giving the ball away in our final third, this will remain my position.That said, at the moment we have to make do with Russ because other than Bennett (which Neil obviously doesn''t rate as he''s picking a right back over him) we have no other options at center back. However we now have 14 and a half weeks before the transfer window opens. In that time McNally, Neil and Darnborough need to spend pretty much every waking hour between now and January 1st convincing Nkoulou, Koulibaly, Sviatchenko or a center back of similar quality that playing for Norwich City is best for their future. The Martin should be moved to his less preferred, but more effective position of right back.

[hogesar 9,667]

[quote user="tellitasitis"] p.s when I saw the title of the post I to thought you must be about 12. Think before you type young man.[/quote]

Plenty of people, me included, have given intelligent, reasoned footballing responses for why Russell Martin continues to be selected by this, other, and previous management teams, all who know a lot more about football than you or I.

However, since you don''t listen to any of that, I thought a provocative title might get all you Anti-NCFC brigade fired up so you can whinge a little more.

Suffice to say, it''s worked.

[lake district canary 4,531]

Sometimes I really despair at how some people view their football.  Promotion, a draw at Anfield, several excellent performances so far this season and a decent points tally so far and still the "not good enough" wallas keep  coming out of the woodwork.   The evidence is clear as daylight. Martin is a good central defender with many good aspects to his game there, as has been noted by many of his fellow professionals.  Yes he makes an occasional mistake, but so do they all - his are just highlighted to justify a mindset.  It is sad to see it, but plainly some people prefer to see the down side of a person''s attributes.  Negativity sucks.  I still think it''s a hangover from people unable to accept his move from right back.  "Ooh, he is a right back, what''s he doing in the middle?" or "Ooh, how dare he think he can change from a right back to a centre back" -  and any mistake he makes is referred back to that idea that he  is really a right back.  But I have news for those people. He is a centre back. And a good one.  

[hogesar 9,667]

[quote user="lake district canary"]Sometimes I really despair at how some people view their football.  Promotion, a draw at Anfield, several excellent performances so far this season and a decent points tally so far and still the "not good enough" wallas keep  coming out of the woodwork.   The evidence is clear as daylight. Martin is a good central defender with many good aspects to his game there, as has been noted by many of his fellow professionals.  Yes he makes an occasional mistake, but so do they all - his are just highlighted to justify a mindset.  It is sad to see it, but plainly some people prefer to see the down side of a person''s attributes.  Negativity sucks.  I still think it''s a hangover from people unable to accept his move from right back.  "Ooh, he is a right back, what''s he doing in the middle?" or "Ooh, how dare he think he can change from a right back to a centre back" -  and any mistake he makes is referred back to that idea that he  is really a right back.  But I have news for those people. He is a centre back. And a good one. [/quote]

All true, of course, but as with Norwich fan''s, regardless of success, they need a scapegoat of some kind. Since everyone''s playing so well, it must just be the obvious choice to go for the captain.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="lake district canary"]Sometimes I really despair at how some people view their football.  Promotion, a draw at Anfield, several excellent performances so far this season and a decent points tally so far and still the "not good enough" wallas keep  coming out of the woodwork.   The evidence is clear as daylight. Martin is a good central defender with many good aspects to his game there, as has been noted by many of his fellow professionals.  Yes he makes an occasional mistake, but so do they all - his are just highlighted to justify a mindset.  It is sad to see it, but plainly some people prefer to see the down side of a person''s attributes.  Negativity sucks.  I still think it''s a hangover from people unable to accept his move from right back.  "Ooh, he is a right back, what''s he doing in the middle?" or "Ooh, how dare he think he can change from a right back to a centre back" -  and any mistake he makes is referred back to that idea that he  is really a right back.  But I have news for those people. He is a centre back. And a good one. [/quote]

All true, of course, but as with Norwich fan''s, regardless of success, they need a scapegoat of some kind. Since everyone''s playing so well, it must just be the obvious choice to go for the captain.

[/quote]

[hogesar 9,667]

I like Spongebob.

[Buh 0]

The attitude on some of you...

Alex Neil went to an field and got a result, but suddenly that''s not good enough?

Luckily he puts the advancement of the team above the fickle opinions of the "eye dint'' goo tutha gayme tuday neyull"ers

Excellent result from the lads. Worked hard and got a valuable point away from home.

[grefstad 0]

I have said here before, and I will say it again: Russ Martin is playing because we have not other viable option in central defence at the moment.

The board failed to bring in improvements, and as a result, Russ is playing.

Also, his status as captain gives him more goodwill than his defensive prowess deserves, imho.

I will ofcourse accept that other people, like Hogesar and LDC thinks differently, but I am pretty sure that AN is playing Russ because he has not got better options there atm. AN tried to get a central defender in, but failed. Would he go looking for 10 mill CB''s to be understudy to the magnificent defensive enigma that is Russ Martin?

I dont think AN let Russ play because he is captain, because he is a nice guy, because he is Scottish, cares about the fans, or whatever. He is playing because there is no real competition for him at the moment.

AN is no fool. He will have seen Russ'' failings, but his alternatives are not much better.

Still, wishing for an upgrade does not make you automatically "not a Norwich fan", which Hogesar claims.

[mrs miggins 0]

Hog:

"But this is the problem. You''ve specifically gone through the highlights and picked out mistakes from Martin.

I can do the same in most of our games of other players. Even yesterday, Howson gave the ball away needlessly a couple of times."

------------

From the highlights in which our players mistakes could''ve cost us:

http://www.fullmatchesandshows.com/2015/09/20/liverpool-vs-norwich-city-highlights-full-match/

Ruddy

Whittaker - 2:34 4:20 8:05

Martin - 3:24 3:50 4:44 8:05 9:40

Bassong

Brady - 0:30 1:00 9:40

Redmond

Tettey - 5:44 8:36

Howson - 5:44

Dorrans - 8:36 9:40

Jarvis

Jerome

Martin made the most costly mistakes because the job he does is more risky. He''s likely to make more passes and more successful passes than the rest of the back line because of his job as the ''ball playing CB'' but the problem is imo he still makes too many mistakes. If we move him to RB and get in a better ball playing CB, surely this can only be a good thing?

I know Van Dijk was always going to Southampton but he had a great debut against West Brom the other day. We need someone like him.

-----

Hog:

"All true, of course, but as with Norwich fan''s, regardless of success, they need a scapegoat of some kind. Since everyone''s playing so well, it must just be the obvious choice to go for the captain."

-

Why do you say its scapegoating? It seems if you criticise Martin or Whittaker you''re ''scapegoating'' - its complete b0ll0x. I could understand it if we weren''t doing well and people felt they needed to blame someone, but this isn''t the case, we''re doing very well at the moment and playing some great stuff at times. The argument that because someone doesn''t think Martin is a good enough CB and is therefore not a ncfc fan is obviously stupidity at the highest degree, I don''t think that needs explaining. Terrible premise for a thread.

[93vintage 16]

I think there''s a degree of truth in Hogesar''s statement.If we''re going to try and play football then we need someone at CB who''s good in between the lines, ie a good footballer. It takes a certain bravery to play it out from the back, it''s often easier to hoof it forward and let the strikers/midfield try and regain possession.Playing a CB like Martin means mistakes will be made. But the alternative of having a traditional stopper leads to a dead end, with a reduced ability to keep the ball and mount counterattacks.

[mrs miggins 0]

No, the alternative is to buy a better ball playing CB.

[93vintage 16]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]No, the alternative is to buy a better ball playing CB.[/quote]That''s a genius idea.

[hogesar 9,667]

[quote user="93vintage"]I think there''s a degree of truth in Hogesar''s statement.If we''re going to try and play football then we need someone at CB who''s good in between the lines, ie a good footballer. It takes a certain bravery to play it out from the back, it''s often easier to hoof it forward and let the strikers/midfield try and regain possession.Playing a CB like Martin means mistakes will be made. But the alternative of having a traditional stopper leads to a dead end, with a reduced ability to keep the ball and mount counterattacks.[/quote]

Bloody hell, that''s at least one more degree than I usually get.

What people want is a player who can play the ball out as well as Martin, score as many goals as Martin, but defend better than Martin, be taller than Martin, and stronger than Martin.

Well I want Rita Ora to knock on my door tonight and....well i''ll stop here as the other half''s family tend to read this board sometimes. [:D].

The point i''m making is, that kind of defender is unfortunately reserved for the top 8 clubs in the country, unless you get very lucky with a foreign buy. 

[mrs miggins 0]

Top 8 clubs...like Newcastle who''ve just bought Chancel Mbema.

Its such a shame he went there, Newcastle are a mess.

Koulibaly was also willing to come here if reports are true but Napoli changed their mind and decided to keep him. Again a shame, he''s a great player.

[Buh 0]

I''d be willing to be pound for pound Russell Martin is one of the best centre backs in the league.

He''s the kind of player I want playing in the team. Keep saying "we should be buying Ronaldo" if you want but hes what we''ve got and Hes not going anywhere anytime soon so Simon lappin it up basically.

[Cerberus 0]

Mrs M,Apparently, it was Koulibaly himself, who saw us as a backward step, rather than Napoli that was the problem. See the link below.http://www.football-italia.net/73046/koulibaly-talks-norwich

[hogesar 9,667]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]Top 8 clubs...like Newcastle who''ve just bought Chancel Mbema.

Its such a shame he went there, Newcastle are a mess.

Koulibaly was also willing to come here if reports are true but Napoli changed their mind and decided to keep him. Again a shame, he''s a great player.[/quote]

Hmm...Newcastle. They could probably offer 3x the wages we can. Plus a bigger club in general.

Doesn''t really prove your point!

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

Something that doesn''t seem to have been mentioned much in this debate is the instructions given from the manager. It''s clear that AN wants us to play from the back, and there have been dozens of occasions this season where the defence has tidily played itself out of trouble, retaining possession in the process. Trouble is, when you play that way, you are at least occasionally going to concede possession in your own (or at least the middle) third. Swansea, Bournemouth and all the other apprentice-tiki-taka teams, will periodically give possession away in their own third through overplaying. If, instead of trying to zip the pass into Dorrans'' feet (as RM did yesterday for Liverpool''s goal, but also did successfully several other times during the match), he defaulted to hitting long floaty balls up to Jerome, we would never have had a foothold in the match.The fact is, we play a high-tempo, high-risk, technically gifted style of football, and that will lead to giving possession away in dangerous areas more often. If you go for a safety-first approach, the turnovers of possession may not be as immediately dangerous, but they will be much more frequent and the opposition will have many more periods of possession with which to punish us.I don''t deny that a ''genuine'' ball-playing centre-back would improve our squad, but frankly we''re not going to get the next Rio Ferdinand unless we''re obscenely lucky or uncharacteristically flash with our cash. Given the resources available to us, we''re playing a fantastic brand of football with much more versatility than the tiki-taka fetishists, and long may it continue. Martin is only playing as he is instructed to play by his manager, and looking at his career trajectory he''s pretty much playing at his peak right now. I have no doubt that as and when the manager feels Martin needs ''upgrading'', he will do so (as he did with Johnson). Until then, be thankful for what you''ve got and be careful what you wish for.

[93vintage 16]

[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="93vintage"]I think there''s a degree of truth in Hogesar''s statement.If we''re going to try and play football then we need someone at CB who''s good in between the lines, ie a good footballer. It takes a certain bravery to play it out from the back, it''s often easier to hoof it forward and let the strikers/midfield try and regain possession.Playing a CB like Martin means mistakes will be made. But the alternative of having a traditional stopper leads to a dead end, with a reduced ability to keep the ball and mount counterattacks.[/quote]

Bloody hell, that''s at least one more degree than I usually get.

What people want is a player who can play the ball out as well as Martin, score as many goals as Martin, but defend better than Martin, be taller than Martin, and stronger than Martin.

Well I want Rita Ora to knock on my door tonight and....well i''ll stop here as the other half''s family tend to read this board sometimes. [:D].

The point i''m making is, that kind of defender is unfortunately reserved for the top 8 clubs in the country, unless you get very lucky with a foreign buy. 

[/quote]That''s the problem we''ll always face. As things stand we can buy a small number of top players, but the remainder will need to be a mixture of flawed, unpolished and underrated.In general we need to be buying younger. Mrs Miggins has suggested Koulibaly, but we need to be buying someone like him when he moved to Genk from Metz for £1.1m, instead of paying £7m+ once they''ve become proven.The irony is that Russell Martin was bought for relative peanuts when he was much younger. We need to prime the pump so that we see more of these coming through, otherwise we''ll struggle to compete in future.

[mrs miggins 0]

So Hog you''re saying Chancel Mbemba, signed for around £8m, is on £120,000 a week?...yeah didn''t think so. It certainly does prove my point that we can buy good players that aren''t made for top 8 teams. I''m not saying we having the pulling power of Newcastle but what if they decided to get someone else and Mbemba''s only choice was to stay at his club, us or Bournemouth say? We''d certainly have a chance wouldn''t we. With Koulibaly we held talks with him which suggests the possibility was certainly there. So the lesson is, don''t be so defeatist. There''s players out there, good players, that we can get for around £8m that would play for Norwich. btw, how good has Brady been btw, and he''s not even a proper left back.

And Buh, are you saying that he''s (Mbemba) is as good as Ronaldo? Seriously? :)

I also just want to repost what you said again just because it''s funny.

---

Buh:

"I''d be willing to be pound for pound Russell Martin is one of the best centre backs in the league."

---

You also say;

"He''s the kind of player I want playing in the team. Hes not going anywhere anytime soon so Simon lappin it up basically."

I couldn''t agree more. I think he''s a great captain; (which I called for when people were saying we should give it to someone else) as well as the fact that he''s a good player for a mid table championship side imo. Is he good enough at CB though? The answer is yes, for a team threatened with relegation, but not for a team like ours which I think could aim a little higher, and achieve it with only one signing.

As I myself have said, as well as feedthewolf, the way we play means that Russell Martin will make mistakes on the ball as he''s the ball playing centre back, what we need is a centre back who''s at least as good as Martin at passing, but who can also defend like a normal CB.

[93vintage 16]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]So Hog you''re saying Chancel Mbemba, signed for around £8m, is on £120,000 a week?...yeah didn''t think so. It certainly does prove my point that we can buy good players that aren''t made for top 8 teams. I''m not saying we having the pulling power of Newcastle but what if they decided to get someone else and Mbemba''s only choice was to stay at his club, us or Bournemouth say? We''d certainly have a chance wouldn''t we. With Koulibaly we held talks with him which suggests the possibility was certainly there. So the lesson is, don''t be so defeatist. There''s players out there, good players, that we can get for around £8m that would play for Norwich. btw, how good has Brady been btw, and he''s not even a proper left back.

And Buh, are you saying that he''s (Mbemba) is as good as Ronaldo? Seriously? :)

I also just want to repost what you said again just because it''s funny.

---

Buh:

"I''d be willing to be pound for pound Russell Martin is one of the best centre backs in the league."

---

You also say;

"He''s the kind of player I want playing in the team. Hes not going anywhere anytime soon so Simon lappin it up basically."

I couldn''t agree more. I think he''s a great captain; (which I called for when people were saying we should give it to someone else) as well as the fact that he''s a good player for a mid table championship side imo. Is he good enough at CB though? The answer is yes, for a team threatened with relegation, but not for a team like ours which I think could aim a little higher, and achieve it with only one signing.

As I myself have said, as well as feedthewolf, the way we play means that Russell Martin will make mistakes on the ball as he''s the ball playing centre back, what we need is a centre back who''s at least as good as Martin at passing, but who can also defend like a normal CB.[/quote]It''s easier to pick out potential signings who cost £8m+ on relatively

big pay than it is to suggest players who''d cost say £2.5m or less and be young enough to have a decent chance of being resold at a profit. The fact is we can''t compete by having a team made up of just the former.Have you got any suggestions for younger/cheaper prospects?

[grefstad 0]

Buying young is well and good, but Koulibaly would not be playing for us if we got him for 1.1m as a youngster.

He would be strolling around in the reserves, never getting a chance, because "better" players were blocking his chance.

It is all about identifying potential, but also having the guts to give young players a chance to develop, in the first team. This is the hardest part.

[ViewfromtheJarrold 0]

I think there will always be a disagreement between fans as to who is decent and who is not and we all have that right to discuss, debate and disagree......unless............That''s unless you are ''anti Russell Martin'' and that, according to the lame brained Hog, means you are not a Norwich fan......What an obnoxious cretin you really are!

[mrs miggins 0]

I''m kind of reluctant to give a long list because I''ll have to trawl back to threads from months ago where I''ve given lists of players who i''d have liked us to sign.

I don''t think we should be thinking about if they''ve got a resale value necessarily, unless of course they''re about 29+.

But if we only had a few million to spend on a ball playing CB who was cheap I''d go for Harlee Dean of Brentford.

Martin Dean Bassong Brady (or Olsson) looks like a strong mid table back 4.

Though if you want a more exotic name, and who''d be even better imo I''d go for Martin Hinteregger. Not as good at passing from the few games and stats that I''ve seen compared to Dean but looks to me like a better defender all round and would still suit our style of play as he''s very comfortable on the ball. I believe Liverpool and Arsenal were supposedly linked, but their linked with everyone, I don''t think he''s good enough to play for them. We''d be in with a chance imo.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

[quote user="grefstad"]Buying young is well and good, but Koulibaly would not be playing for us if we got him for 1.1m as a youngster.

He would be strolling around in the reserves, never getting a chance, because "better" players were blocking his chance.

It is all about identifying potential, but also having the guts to give young players a chance to develop, in the first team. This is the hardest part.[/quote]A very good point, that. If Neil had signed such a player (or a Harlee Dean/Kortney Hause) in this window, it''s highly unlikely he would have considered dropping his club captain for a youngster unproven at the top level. Say what you like, our achievements since Neil took over have vindicated every decision he has made; bringing Grabban back into the fold, leaving Wes out the team, sticking with Whittaker and Martin... as with Lambert, he seems to have that rare ability to make decent players look like excellent players. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts, but Neil''s project is still in its infancy. Why make wholesale changes to a team that has performed fantastically well for you? If it ain''t broke, and all that. I''m absolutely certain that Neil has a vision of where he would like to strengthen the team and the squad, but he''s going to do it incrementally rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water. That seems remarkably mature for such a headstrong and ambitious young manager.I''m not saying for a minute that people shouldn''t debate or question his decisions and selections, but until such time as our performances and results decline significantly, it''s awesome to just sit back and realise how remarkably correct Neil''s decision-making seems to be. He knows we''re not perfect, but he also knows that this is a long-term project that requires evolution rather than revolution to continue its upward trajectory.

[grefstad 0]

One of the big tests for AN is when its time to say goodbye to old heroes. He was not very emotional when BJ was sent to Derby, and I hope the same ruthlessness also will be shown when he deems Russ or even Wes not good enough. Its part of the game, but young managers tend to value loyalty, so you could argue its hard(er) for them to "get rid" of players that have performed well over time, and are Norwich through and through, etc.

Will be very interesting to see the upgrades and changes made if/when we stay up.

[hogesar 9,667]

[quote user="ViewfromtheJarrold"]I think there will always be a disagreement between fans as to who is decent and who is not and we all have that right to discuss, debate and disagree......unless............That''s unless you are ''anti Russell Martin'' and that, according to the lame brained Hog, means you are not a Norwich fan......What an obnoxious cretin you really are!

[/quote]

The fact youre taking my thread title so seriously would be hilarious if it didnt make me feel sorry for you.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,431]

Just for the record I love Russell Martin

But also I don''t need to be told by anyone if I am , or not , a Norwich City Fan.

And I live in Suffolk.

I can imagine several cerebral relapses ocurring right now.