Toffolo / Reece Oxford west ham

[norfolkngood 1,086]

Fantastic debut against arsenal just goes to show that you can play youth players instead of 1st teamers out of position ( brady ) something we should do at left back if toffolo isn''t ready when he is 19 then when will he be ?

also I think I am right in saying player under 21 do not count in the 25 man squad so you can have a much bigger squad to choose from

[Crafty Canary 495]

Agree with this entirely. Toffolo should definitely be in the team at Sunderland.

[Fuzzar 1,702]

Also agree with this. And Brady in his strongest position. Sunderland are one of the weakest sides we''ll come up against this season - perfect time to blood him.

[KoromaCrab 0]

Agreed - push Brady to his preferred and strongest position with Toffolo at LB.

What if Toffolo is really good - does that mean Olhsson will find it hard to come back in?

[Lessingham Canary 99]

Koroma Crab, what a nice problem to have, Toffolo looks like he will get a chance at some point soon.

[GJP 79]

I''m sure if AN thinks Toffolo is a better bet at LB than Brady then he will do it.

For all the positive reports about Toffolo in pre season he clearly struggled against West Ham when they went up a gear.

I think he''s got something but I wasn''t surprised he wasn''t involved against Palace.

[Indy 3,283]

I''d like to see three changes for Saturday, Toffolo on for Johnson pushing Bradey forward, Jerome for Grabban and we have to start Redders, but we would need to drop eitherWes or Dorrans.

But good shout and on the bench would like to see Thimpson instead of O''Neil.

[YorkshirePudding 0]

Indy: "I''d like to see three changes for Saturday, Toffolo on for Johnson pushing Bradey forward, Jerome for Grabban and we have to start Redders, but we would need to drop eitherWes or Dorrans."

Or you could just drop Howson? Have Brady-Wes-Redmond as the 3 behind Jerome.

I agree with the OP though

[Indy 3,283]

Could drop Howson but I thought he had an excellent game.

That''s the issue our midfield including Johnson were excellent in the most part. Tettey was solid.

Tough choices as it would easy to change the back 4 and the striker!

[NCFC198 2]

[quote user="Indy"]I''d like to see three changes for Saturday, Toffolo on for Johnson pushing Bradey forward, Jerome for Grabban and we have to start Redders, but we would need to drop eitherWes or Dorrans.

But good shout and on the bench would like to see Thimpson instead of O''Neil.[/quote]

O''Neil is a steady hand to have on the bench. Not sure why you would go with Thimpson ahead of him, have you ever seen him play?

Same goes for Toffolo, how many of you have actually seen him play? Apart from a few years ago in the youth cup, I suspect most have never seen him play. its easy to get over excited by the prospect of a youth player.

Will be intrestng to see how many of the 37 remaining games Oxford starts for West Ham.

[Indy 3,283]

Watched both for a very decent Swindon last season, a few games on TV the rest highlights, given most supporters said they were the best two in that side, I''d be inclined to give them a go ahead of ageing pros who other teams discarded on promotion. Ruthless but sometimes better to move forward than be sentimental to a player just never good enough for this league IMO.

Just my thoughts.

[STAN 29]

Utterly stupid viewpoint really.

Just because West Ham have a decent youngster who''s considered to be ready for the first team doesn''t mean we have.

If you''re good enough you''re old enough. I''m pretty sure Neil doesn''t select his squad based on age.

It''s like saying.. Rooney was being selected for England at 19, so why isn''t Carlton Morris?

[norfolkngood 1,086]

not saying him select him for the sake of it !!

if we have players around the 18 , 19 to 20 mark who can play in the natural postion instead of a 1st teamer who playing in his wrong position it makes sense to play them ,

if not then why are they here if they are not good enough ?

yes the lad from west ham must be a very good talent but if you have 2 left backs and one is injured why not play next inline instead of gap filling

we find it with russell martin he is a RB played there for years does things without thinking as it has become natural to him move him to CB and it shows ...........

[andyc24_uk 58]

Absolutely agree with this - Brady at LB is a waste of 7m! Toffolo would definitely be no worse and deserves his chance; and Brady and Redmond down both wings would scare the carp out of Sunderland I suspect!

[andyc24_uk 58]

I think the board needs to make a decision this season with regards to the academy set-up, either we start to trust the players in the first team, or we may as well scrap the whole thing and save a couple of million a year. If we were producing quality players and selling them for a profit then fine, but there''s no point in spending our money producing players who will never play for us and just end up going to the likes of Luton for free. If the players aren''t good enough, then we need to ask why not, when Southampton etc are producing world-class youngsters from a similar setup. Do we need to invest in better coaches? are our scouts not finding the best prospects?

Personally I''d love to see a rule change in the PL so that you HAVE to have at least one home grown player in your starting lineup, not just in the squad; would be good for the future of British football but I think we''re a few years away from that happening yet.

[STAN 29]

I give you Ryan Jarvis, Rossi Jarvis, Robert Eagle, Luke Daley, Ian Henderson, Tom Adeymi, Danny Crow etc etc etc.

I''m not lumping Toffolo in this category, but just because you''re around the first team doesn''t mean you''re actually ready for the first team.

Neil has obviously seen something in Toffolo and like us, is hoping he continues to develop.

It just makes me laugh how some people think they know better than Neil despite the fact they know very little about Toffolo.

If he''s selected for the Sunderland game then great, i''d love too see a decent youth prospect. If he''s not then he''s obviously not up to the job yet.

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

[quote user="andyc24_uk"]I think the board needs to make a decision this season with regards to the academy set-up, either we start to trust the players in the first team, or we may as well scrap the whole thing and save a couple of million a year. If we were producing quality players and selling them for a profit then fine, but there''s no point in spending our money producing players who will never play for us and just end up going to the likes of Luton for free. If the players aren''t good enough, then we need to ask why not, when Southampton etc are producing world-class youngsters from a similar setup. Do we need to invest in better coaches? are our scouts not finding the best prospects?[/quote]Excellent point well made. The truth is that none of us really know how good the youth team players are, because we never get to see them in the first team. If they''re genuinely not good enough, who is taking responsibility for analysing why that is? With this ubiquitous ''football board'' overseeing the club, you''d except no stone to be left unturned in helping us to achieve our aim of Premier League stability.The elephant in the room, however, is we had a whole squad of teenagers who beat the best in the land to win the FA Youth Cup, but not one of them has made a serious impact on the first team. I''m not claiming to know why that is, but it is quite baffling.

[norfolkngood 1,086]

our youth players seem to get plenty of youth caps under 16 , 17 etc even won the cup !

so they must be the best at their age group so why they don''t progress further is the problem ....

[GJP 79]

[quote user="STAN"]I give you Ryan Jarvis, Rossi Jarvis, Robert Eagle, Luke Daley, Ian Henderson, Tom Adeymi, Danny Crow etc etc etc. I''m not lumping Toffolo in this category, but just because you''re around the first team doesn''t mean you''re actually ready for the first team. Neil has obviously seen something in Toffolo and like us, is hoping he continues to develop. It just makes me laugh how some people think they know better than Neil despite the fact they know very little about Toffolo. If he''s selected for the Sunderland game then great, i''d love too see a decent youth prospect. If he''s not then he''s obviously not up to the job yet.[/quote]

Exactly. AN sees him in training and what he could well be seeing is that Toffolo, while maybe ahead of his peers, is coming up a bit short against the senior pros.

 

Also, the other thing that doesn''t really get considered is that including an unproven youth player means one less place for a proven senior player. If you put Toffolo at left back against Sunderland then you have to leave out either your £7m new signing after 1 appearance or your POTS. How is that going to go down?

 

 

[norfolkngood 1,086]

square pegs in round holes how does anyone know how toffolo would play unless given the chance .........

I bet if you watched a lot of players in training they play better on match day and raise their levels in a real game and others shrink due to pressure this what you find out

alot of players have the same skill level its the mental approach that sorts the men from the boys

it really bugs me playing senior pros out of position when there is a natural position player waiting in the wings

[Nuff Said 5,088]

[quote user="Feedthewolf"]Excellent point well made. The truth is that none of us really know how good the youth team players are, because we never get to see them in the first team. If they''re genuinely not good enough, who is taking responsibility for analysing why that is? With this ubiquitous ''football board'' overseeing the club, you''d except no stone to be left unturned in helping us to achieve our aim of Premier League stability.The elephant in the room, however, is we had a whole squad of teenagers who beat the best in the land to win the FA Youth Cup, but not one of them has made a serious impact on the first team. I''m not claiming to know why that is, but it is quite baffling.[/quote]The quality of their manager perhaps? [ducks] [;)]

[norfolkngood 1,086]

well I would rather have neil adams coaching the youth players than people who have never played in the pro game

people like ricky martin shouldn''t be in charge ( I know he has moved up now )

I know good players don''t make good coaches and good coaches don''t have to had played the game at the highest level but martin couldn''t even get in a wroxham or diss side !!!

craig flemming shouldn''t be a Southampton should be here with hucks etc a lot of our youth coaches have not played in pro game but were / mates ex teammates of ricky martin at diss

I would rather have hucks tell me my boy was not good enough than a failed wroxham fc player

[Legend Iwan 30]

Those hoping for the new(ish) Academy status to instantly improve the youths we already had on our books are in for a surprise. We''re more likely going to have to wait another 3-5 seasons before we start to see a return on the expense, as youngsters get access to the full range of coaching over a number of years.

And in relation to the FA Cup winning side, it''s not really a surprise to see so few kick on into our first team. The were impressive as a collective - well-drilled, organised and fast - but that doesn''t mean as individuals they can make the step up. Out of the past five victorious FA Cup sides, so going back to the 2010/11 final, the total number of appearances by youths progressing to their first team is 55, with Norwich accounting for 23 of those.

Take Andre Wisdom, for example, he was part of the Liverpool side that reached the final back in 2009, and the only member of that team still at the club, yet he''s made just 14 appearances for them in that time and is in his second season on loan to another Premier League side. It''s rare to get a youngster who is of Premier League standard, and it''s even harder for a club like Norwich because of location and competing with bigger London clubs. It''d be great if Toffolo breaks through, but if Neil doesn''t think he''s ready then so be it.

[norfolkngood 1,086]

I do agree but if wisdom was at Norwich instead of Liverpool he should have made far more 1st games had he been with team in the championship like us

[The ghost of Michael Theoklitos 0]

[quote user="Feedthewolf"][quote user="andyc24_uk"]I think the board needs to make a decision this season with regards to the academy set-up, either we start to trust the players in the first team, or we may as well scrap the whole thing and save a couple of million a year. If we were producing quality players and selling them for a profit then fine, but there''s no point in spending our money producing players who will never play for us and just end up going to the likes of Luton for free. If the players aren''t good enough, then we need to ask why not, when Southampton etc are producing world-class youngsters from a similar setup. Do we need to invest in better coaches? are our scouts not finding the best prospects?[/quote]Excellent point well made. The truth is that none of us really know how good the youth team players are, because we never get to see them in the first team. If they''re genuinely not good enough, who is taking responsibility for analysing why that is? With this ubiquitous ''football board'' overseeing the club, you''d except no stone to be left unturned in helping us to achieve our aim of Premier League stability.The elephant in the room, however, is we had a whole squad of teenagers who beat the best in the land to win the FA Youth Cup, but not one of them has made a serious impact on the first team. I''m not claiming to know why that is, but it is quite baffling.[/quote]It''s not baffling. It''s normal.Take a look at this list. With a few obvious exceptions, it''s hardly a who''s who of Premier League stars.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FA_Youth_Cup_Finals_of_the_2000sIf we end up with any more than 1 or 2 of that Youth Cup winning team playing at the top level, I''d say that''s above average.

[hogesar 9,615]

Toffolo has done well to get himself in and around the first team, but I didn''t expect him to start against Palace, particularly with the wingers he was going to be facing.

He may or may not get a chance this season, but if he was that much better than Brady at LB he''d have started.

[Paul Spector 0]

I trust Alex Neil''s judgement if he feels Toffolo not quite ready. From what I have seen of him, I think he would benefit from a year on loan in the Championship. Certainly of all of the FA Youth Cup winning squad, he seems most likely to break through at the moment.

On a larger scale, how many players in recent years have come through our academy and gone on to play at the very top level? Very few, that I can remember. Rob Green, Craig Bellamy, Jason Shackell are probably the best to come through. Unless i''m forgetting some obvious ones?

I would suggest that this is a very poor return over the last 20 years. Is the problem really the catchment area?! Other clubs of a similar size have produced a lot more than us. Is Southampton really such a hotbed of footballing talent?!