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Big Vince

Outdated Ownership Model

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As someone once said .....

"Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way"

and long may it last.

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Just talking to a mate who is a Forest fan.I bet he would rather have the model of someone who actually cares about his club, right now.

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[quote user="Big Vince"]The days of the local businessman in the sheepskin coat owning the local football club are long gone. But Norwich City have not woken up to this fact. The Canary Board has no one who can dig really deep into their pocket in order to fence ring the player wage budget at Premier League level.

No one should be on the board of a Premier League club unless they have serious money to contribute. Delia and Wynnie are poor millionaires by their own admission, and the others have next to nothing to put in. Compare that to most of the other competitors at this level and you see where the problem lies.

Football is big business in this day and age and in order to compete the club will either have to sell out to a larger business entity, or be able to attract a wealthy individual worth at least in the mid hundreds of millions.

So long as Delia and Wynnie continue to cling on and we therefore can''t even afford two £8 million players at either end of the pitch, there is no future for us at this level.

Reality has bitten.[/quote]Outdated ownership model? So where do you want us to be, Big Vince? Do you really want us to be one of the big clubs who head off for a lucrative tour of America or the Far East in

June as a fundraising exercise to help pay the likes of Liverpool’s Balotelli 90 grand a week to sulk on the pitch and discharge his nostrils

of phlegm when he leaves it? Or how about we pay the likes of Sterling’s 160 grand a week at Man City, which should at least keep the

20-year-old nicely supplied with balloons and gas canisters for any

future ‘hippy crack’ sessions?The Premier league isn''t even the best league in the world compared with Spain’s La Liga and the technical ability of the teams in Germany’s Bundesliga. Football in England is like the property market in London, inflated and almost entirely dominated by foreigners where the national team suffers as a consequence.I''d rather see us in the lower divisions if it ever entailed us belonging to the unedifying spectacle the Premier is fast becoming.

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[quote user="morty"]Just talking to a mate who is a Forest fan.I bet he would rather have the model of someone who actually cares about his club, right now.[/quote]Too true. There are plenty of other clubs who have had ''megabucks'' investors that have not turned out to be the golden geese they were purported to be. I''m sure that there is already succession planning going on behind the scenes at Carrow Road, as I doubt that Delia and Michael still see themselves in active control in five years'' time. As things stand, we''re 100% debt-free - how many other clubs in the top two divisions can say that? I''m sure that every Norwich fan would love a very wealthy benefactor to take over in time, but I trust the current incumbents to ensure tht whoever takes the reins doesn''t end up promising much and delivering an ugly black hole in the balance sheet, like certain clubs we''ve moved above and beyond. It''s almost like the binners-waving-tenners never happened, honestly...

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[quote user="E.L.F."]If you want the club to be owned a by fraudulent asian family or middle eastern sheikh warlord then there''s ample opportunity for a new owner. Just ask Cardiff, Blackburn or Fulham how that''s turned out.[/quote]
And then there''s the ownership question over Portsmouth, Leeds United, Hull City and QPR.

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The OP wants the same ownership model but with richer owners, so he''s just suggesting the same outdated model in shiny new packaging plus a wedge of cash that possibly won''t last too long.There''s absolutely no reason why our childless, elderly owners shouldn''t hand the club over to the fans. We''d be guaranteed to be able to have our say in the running of the club instead of debating things on here to little or no effect.Fans would need to be brave under this scenario, in terms of ultimate responsibility there''d be no saviour to worship and no villain to demonise.

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[quote user="93vintage"]The OP wants the same ownership model but with richer owners, so he''s just suggesting the same outdated model in shiny new packaging plus a wedge of cash that possibly won''t last too long.There''s absolutely no reason why our childless, elderly owners shouldn''t hand the club over to the fans. We''d be guaranteed to be able to have our say in the running of the club instead of debating things on here to little or no effect.Fans would need to be brave under this scenario, in terms of ultimate responsibility there''d be no saviour to worship and no villain to demonise.[/quote]Who do you think would be these fans that take over the running of our club with the ability to do a job ?

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[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="93vintage"]The OP wants the same ownership model but with richer owners, so he''s just suggesting the same outdated model in shiny new packaging plus a wedge of cash that possibly won''t last too long.There''s absolutely no reason why our childless, elderly owners shouldn''t hand the club over to the fans. We''d be guaranteed to be able to have our say in the running of the club instead of debating things on here to little or no effect.Fans would need to be brave under this scenario, in terms of ultimate responsibility there''d be no saviour to worship and no villain to demonise.[/quote]Who do you think would be these fans that take over the running of our club with the ability to do a job ? [/quote]I''m certain your substantial police pension would come into play, constable.

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[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="93vintage"]The OP wants the same ownership model but with richer owners, so he''s just suggesting the same outdated model in shiny new packaging plus a wedge of cash that possibly won''t last too long.There''s absolutely no reason why our childless, elderly owners shouldn''t hand the club over to the fans. We''d be guaranteed to be able to have our say in the running of the club instead of debating things on here to little or no effect.Fans would need to be brave under this scenario, in terms of ultimate responsibility there''d be no saviour to worship and no villain to demonise.[/quote]Who do you think would be these fans that take over the running of our club with the ability to do a job ? [/quote]Obviously there''d be some kind of trust ownership with elected representatives sitting on the board of directors. I''m sure there are Norwich fans out there who are suitably qualified to fulfil these roles, almost certainly more qualified than Stephen Fry (who''d make a good club president).This doesn''t preclude someone like Bowkett remaining or someone similar being invited to help out, ie fans don''t have to occupy every position.Day to day things would run much as they do now, probably with the same staff ie from the chief exec & manager, all the way down to the tealady.I can''t see Newton being made chief exec, or Waveney being made manager, but I''m sure you''d be in with a chance if there were a vacancy for tealady.

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Interesting that you mention '' some kind of trust ownership ''  with elected representatives. Do you mean the current Trust and their representatives or an election amongst the fanbase as a whole maybe using those with a customer number as the electorate ?

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What happens when the rich owner with no affiliation with the club gets bored? QPR is a great example, few years ago you couldn''t keep the owners out of the press, super models at home games, players from all over the world. All gone a bit quiet now. Rookie manager, lack of signings, quiet owners. Rather have someone at the top who loves the club than just treating it like a toy for a few years.

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Jeez Lads, although we are often gently mocked for Delia, Stephen Fry et al, we are actually envied by fans of similar sized Clubs for our stability, debt free status and that old chestnut ''progress with prudence.''

I would hazard a guess that nearly if not all the Mid sized clubs mentioned earlier in the thread, with ''rich investors'' would happily swap situations with us. The Club is in good shape, with an exiting new manager.

I, for one ,would hate to see us lose our Directors or for the club to change how we go about our business.

We are a well run Club, long may it stay this way.

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I''m with Cork Canary on this. We should be proud of the way our club is run. Things have never looked so good in my lifetime. Lack of debt, a board who put the club first, a Chief Executive who is shrewd and hasn''t got such an ego that he can admit he''s made mistakes in the past. Most importantly though we are investing more money eye than ever in improving the squad (look how much has been spent in the last three years, I remember signing the likes of Simon Whaley, Owen Tudor, Jason Jarrett and Ian Murray) and the club is being run like a business squeezing every ounce of income possible to continue progressing. I know the last part isn''t to everyone''s taste but it''s what can make the difference between us being a mediocre championship side and a team that can survive in the premier.

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Dead Canary wrote the following post at 12/08/2015 12:51 PM:

 Most importantly though we are investing more money eye than ever in improving the squad (look how much has been spent in the last three years, I remember signing the likes of Simon Whaley, Owen Tudor, Jason Jarrett and Ian Murray)

 

Dead C you are right - add to the names above Voo, Lafferty, Wolf & San Miquell. Must have cost the best part of £15M in transfer fees and we cant shift 3 of them following promotion. There wages alone will be £6M per year over the next 2 years - vast improvement as you say helped by our fantastic scouting network and last summer the Board throwing our cash at a novice manager who lasted 6 months before he jumped.

 

Those 4 alone account for £40M down the drain if we cant shift them

 

How lucky we are - let it continue - or perhaps we could have owners / a Board who knew what they were doing - would that be a good idea - no lets carry on chucking cash away - the posters on this board love that idea  ?

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If Waveney was manager we''d have to have that new stadium built just to fit the extra large dugout in.

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[quote user="TIL 1010"]Interesting that you mention '' some kind of trust ownership ''  with elected representatives. Do you mean the current Trust and their representatives or an election amongst the fanbase as a whole maybe using those with a customer number as the electorate ?[/quote]Something like the later with customer or member numbers used to vote.If you mean the Canaries Trust thingie headed by Robin Sainty, that lot would probably put someone forward in the same way that other candidates could enter the running. We''d just have to hope that they''re not stupid enough to nominate Mick Dennis or Myra Crabtree for election.Some kind of trust would probably be a legal requirement, but the alternative is to see the club eventually change hands somewhere down the line to a bad owner. A fan-controlled entity would prevent this from happening.

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[quote user="Newton"]

Dead Canary wrote the following post at 12/08/2015 12:51 PM:

 Most importantly though we are investing more money eye than ever in improving the squad (look how much has been spent in the last three years, I remember signing the likes of Simon Whaley, Owen Tudor, Jason Jarrett and Ian Murray)

 

Dead C you are right - add to the names above Voo, Lafferty, Wolf & San Miquell. Must have cost the best part of £15M in transfer fees and we cant shift 3 of them following promotion. There wages alone will be £6M per year over the next 2 years - vast improvement as you say helped by our fantastic scouting network and last summer the Board throwing our cash at a novice manager who lasted 6 months before he jumped.

 

Those 4 alone account for £40M down the drain if we cant shift them

 

How lucky we are - let it continue - or perhaps we could have owners / a Board who knew what they were doing - would that be a good idea - no lets carry on chucking cash away - the posters on this board love that idea  ?

[/quote]

 

Great stuff Binboy! Perhaps we should let the fans identify the transfer targets and new managers. A quick look through this message board shows what a good job we''d make of running the club. I''d have every confidence in the likes of you and VinnieBinnie. How could it not be a success...

 

 

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The whole ownership questions revolves around are we as fans happy being a top half championship bottom half premier league team or do we want to be a regular in the premier league

Not sure the current set up and it''s funding allows us to do the later.

It''s all about ambition and risk at the end of the day. A foreign owner with loads of money may be a god send or a disaster. Are we as fans prepared to take the gamble?

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[quote user="Canary Legend"]The whole ownership questions revolves around are we as fans happy being a top half championship bottom half premier league team or do we want to be a regular in the premier league

Not sure the current set up and it''s funding allows us to do the later.

It''s all about ambition and risk at the end of the day. A foreign owner with loads of money may be a god send or a disaster. Are we as fans prepared to take the gamble?[/quote]
It doesn''t have to be a gamble. It is actually very simple. All a prospective buyer (foreign or home-grown) has to do is:Put forward a long-term (ie over decades) business plan for the club that makes sense, and factors in all the possible worst-case scenarios that could be imagined.Open up their books to the shareholders and allow them to be minutely scrutinised by an independent firm of accountants, to ensure the money is more than there for a non-leveraged (ie debt-free) takeover.Make cast-iron promises on what might be called heritage issues, including the future of Carrow Road and Colney, and any future sale, with extra security by way of the provision of a golden-share veto by fans (through a boardroom representative) on such plans.

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Indeed Purple.

Plus of course be excited to invest in a typically financially loss-making enterprise, that carries with it inevitable and eternal criticisms from external stakeholders, often personal and frequently ill-informed.

This loss-making investment should be made to please the fans, with the return based on ego massage, brand association, a desire to be in football at any cost, whilst having the love of the club at heart, preferably from birth and ideally not having sat in the south stand, River end or family enclosure. Not having been "one of those idiots who sits by me and shouts rubbish".

A lady owner who loves the club, married to a passionate fan, with a sought-after, professional CEO, a famous gay Director, a deal-maker Chairman well respected in the City, board links to Archant and key media stakeholders. Increasing and diverse off field revenue, notably based on the owners key skillset, plus excellent Community links.

Oh for a rich, unconnected benefactor with money. Think what we could achieve.....

Parma

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Ha ha Newton where did you pluck those figures from you jumped from 15m to 40m wasted! Just some quick maths for you and this assumes your random figures are correct in anyway what so ever but 15m+6m+6m= 27m. For someone who spends so much time banging on about money wasted you should maybe go back to school and retake your maths. All of those would have walked into our team of a few years ago and would have been stars alongside Fotheringham and Co.

Anyway my point still stands I would rather be in a position signing these players than what we were previously. The reasons we are now competing for these is the board and the magnificent job they have done to turn us into a club that can compete. Plus you may not be aware but it doesn''t matter how good the board are every club makes signings that just don''t work and money is lost. Look at Di Maria, Shevchenko, Veron, Robhino these were world class players but it didn''t work out. If it was all as simple as you seem to believe then everyone would be running successful football clubs.

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It seems a little bit odd that the most pro-Delia posters on the one hand defend the owners by way of comparison to the evils another private owner might bring, but on the other don''t seem to be very much in favour of fans owning the club.With private ownership all sorts of issues might effect a change of owner, eg bankruptcy or death etc, and an undesirable owner could take control. But fan ownership, probably via an independent fan trust, would avoid many of these sorts of issues.I''m not saying fan ownership would be perfect, but there probably won''t be a better opportunity for this to happen for many years should Delia and Winnie decided to sell up or leave their shares to someone else.It''s been said that our club is run like a mutual, even though the fans own very little of it and have little say in how it''s run. But would fans be in favour of it being more of a real mutual entity whereby members hold a controlling stake?

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[quote user="93vintage"]It''s been said that our club is run like a

mutual, even though the fans own very little of it and have little say

in how it''s run.
But would fans be in favour of it being more of a real

mutual entity whereby members hold a controlling stake?[/quote]
 
And there''s the problem I have with this. I''d hate to see fans having a say on how the club is run. What on earth are our qualifications for running a football club? Just read this board. Do you really want the likes of newton, nutty or 93vintage running the club? Do we really want Highland Canary in charge? Or any of the supporters groups? Think about it. It''s ok to post opinions on here. But running the club? It sends shivers down my spine....
 
 
 
 

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[quote user="93vintage"]It seems a little bit odd that the most pro-Delia posters on the one hand defend the owners by way of comparison to the evils another private owner might bring, but on the other don''t seem to be very much in favour of fans owning the club.With private ownership all sorts of issues might effect a change of owner, eg bankruptcy or death etc, and an undesirable owner could take control. But fan ownership, probably via an independent fan trust, would avoid many of these sorts of issues.I''m not saying fan ownership would be perfect, but there probably won''t be a better opportunity for this to happen for many years should Delia and Winnie decided to sell up or leave their shares to someone else.It''s been said that our club is run like a mutual, even though the fans own very little of it and have little say in how it''s run. But would fans be in favour of it being more of a real mutual entity whereby members hold a controlling stake?[/quote]You will need to help me here. I have just quickly read through every post in this thread and I can''t find one post (let alone from a supposed pro-Deliarite) that openly objects to the notion of the fans owning the club. I can''t actually remember one that even goes into the pros and cons of your suggestion. Almost without exception the posts are either advocatng or rubbishing the idea of a mega-rich owner.I can see that those posters, such as Big Vince and Newton, who want a rich owner are by implication dismissing your idea of fan-ownership, but then pretty much by definition those posters are self-confessedly anti-Delia rather than pro-Delia.But I see no overt or even subtextual antagonism to your idea from pro-Deliarites. Indeed in the past the posters most amenable to some form of supporter-director or fan-ownership have almost exclusievly been pro-Deliarites imagining what form of ownership might follow the Smith and Jones era.

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[quote user="Parma Hams gone mouldy"]Indeed Purple.

Plus of course be excited to invest in a typically financially loss-making enterprise, that carries with it inevitable and eternal criticisms from external stakeholders, often personal and frequently ill-informed.

This loss-making investment should be made to please the fans, with the return based on ego massage, brand association, a desire to be in football at any cost, whilst having the love of the club at heart, preferably from birth and ideally not having sat in the south stand, River end or family enclosure. Not having been "one of those idiots who sits by me and shouts rubbish".

A lady owner who loves the club, married to a passionate fan, with a sought-after, professional CEO, a famous gay Director, a deal-maker Chairman well respected in the City, board links to Archant and key media stakeholders. Increasing and diverse off field revenue, notably based on the owners key skillset, plus excellent Community links.

Oh for a rich, unconnected benefactor with money. Think what we could achieve.....

Parma[/quote]

[Y]

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Well, I would happily take a seat on the Board.  I''ve been declared bankrupt twice, and have never held a job for longer than nine months, but have also played every version of Football Manager since 2008 and once took Accrington Stanley into the Championship, so that must balance out slightly in my favour?

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I am sure that our majority shareholders have a plan ready to implement the day they decide to take a back seat or heaven forbid ill health plays a part as after all they are both now in their early seventies. This notion of fan participation in running the club may be fine for a lower league club scratching around for an existence on four figure crowds who are on their uppers where painting the dressing rooms, cutting the grass, flogging programmes on a match day, manning the turnstiles etc serves a useful purpose as well as getting the local garage or such like to sponsor the shirts helps keep their club afloat. However the thought of Norwich fans representing our club on the board with gates approaching thirty thousand, dealing with a turnover well in excess of £100 Million, sorting numerous sponsorships with the likes of Aviva,Corals, Jarrolds, N&P etc fills me with dread. Let''s just leave it to people who have experience in dealing with vast sums of money whether it be their own or on behalf of companies they have worked for in an executive position . I think that covers every member of our board.

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[quote user="TIL 1010"]I am sure that our majority shareholders have a plan ready to implement the day they decide to take a back seat or heaven forbid ill health plays a part as after all they are both now in their early seventies. This notion of fan participation in running the club may be fine for a lower league club scratching around for an existence on four figure crowds who are on their uppers where painting the dressing rooms, cutting the grass, flogging programmes on a match day, manning the turnstiles etc serves a useful purpose as well as getting the local garage or such like to sponsor the shirts helps keep their club afloat. However the thought of Norwich fans representing our club on the board with gates approaching thirty thousand, dealing with a turnover well in excess of £100 Million, sorting numerous sponsorships with the likes of Aviva,Corals, Jarrolds, N&P etc fills me with dread. Let''s just leave it to people who have experience in dealing with vast sums of money whether it be their own or on behalf of companies they have worked for in an executive position . I think that covers every member of our board.[/quote]That is a strong argument against the board being made up of fans. It isn''t a strong argument against there being one supporter-director. I simply don''t believe there are not fans out there who either already have the qualifications to serve as a director or the brains to get up to speed very quickly. Myself I am not sold on the idea of a supporter-director, but not over any fears of a lack of competence. I am sure we could find a talented individual whose standing and knowledge would actively enlighten and improve boardroom discussions.

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Re: Outdated Ownership Model

Canary Legend wrote:

The whole ownership questions revolves around are we as fans happy being a top half championship bottom half premier league team or do we want to be a regular in the premier league Not sure the current set up and it''s funding allows us to do the later. It''s all about ambition and risk at the end of the day. A foreign owner with loads of money may be a god send or a disaster. Are we as fans prepared to take the gamble?

It doesn''t have to be a gamble. It is actually very simple. All a prospective buyer (foreign or home-grown) has to do is:

Put forward a long-term (ie over decades) business plan for the club that makes sense, and factors in all the possible worst-case scenarios that could be imagined.

Open up their books to the shareholders and allow them to be minutely scrutinised by an independent firm of accountants, to ensure the money is more than there for a non-leveraged (ie debt-free) takeover.

Make cast-iron promises on what might be called heritage issues, including the future of Carrow Road and Colney, and any future sale, with extra security by way of the provision of a golden-share veto by fans (through a boardroom representative) on such plans.

Purple what utter dribble

Is this what the current owners are doing - certainly not, we deserve someone in charge who can take this club to the next level - the current owners have no intention of doing that

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