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Dicky

Flemmo - key player

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OK, probably on my own here, but I think Flemmo will be a key player for us next season.

I know that virtually everyone on here has him as the weak link, boss''s pet etc, but I personally think he will do a good job for us in the Championship next year.

Let''s not forget, in our promotion year he was our player of the season - not Hucks, Greeno, Francis etc.

I''m not saying he has Prem pace, and I know he is no spring chicken, but in the Championship I think his experience and ability to read the game will do us proud.

 

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Whilst you may not be alone in your thinking Dicky I don''t agree with you.

From what little I saw of the Canaries last year Fleming doesn''t come across as a player to unite the team on the pitch with encouragement and togetherness. Far too often he''s looking to apportion blame, for what has often come from his mistakes.

Whilst he may be a useful player to have in the squad I think it''s time to step aside and let a younger player take over his role in the back four.

Unless Worthy brings in another solid centre back I think it''s time to give the pairing of Doherty and Shackell a chance to gel.

...

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You''re not on your own, probably, but there are many of us who felt that at times last season he looked not only slow, but hesitant in making tackles. He was out of position regularly and made some elementary mistakes, such as the regulation header he completely missed and which led to the Doherty handball.

He has been a great servant to the club, but he is older and makes too many mistakes. He had a good season before the premiership, but how far was that because Malky was completely dominant in the air?

All of us would be pleased to see him become outstanding again, and perhaps his problem was that the manager played him too long last season after he had lost conviction, but having seen him struggle we are looking elsewhere to give the defence solidity.

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I pray that you are on your own here Dicky.

Everything what is wrong with our defence, is in my opinion, his fault.

He''s slow, and gets sucked out of position far too often, thus putting other players like Shacks, under further pressure. He also has a bad habit of giving away silly free kicks, often in dangerous positions. 

Why Worthy persists with him, goodness only knows?.

A born ball watcher, a teachers pet if you like, he is the weakest link, goodbye!.

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I have just thought of one theory that he may be missing malky who would boss the defence around, therefore telling flem what to do so he stayed in position etc. Also they worked together very well

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[quote]OK, probably on my own here, but I think Flemmo will be a key player for us next season. I know that virtually everyone on here has him as the weak link, boss''s pet etc, but I personally think he wil...[/quote]

Couldn''t agree more, Dicky, you''re most definitely right:

You are on your own

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Fleming is a Fleming Liability; probably attributable for the loss of a number of defenders leaving not forgetting Andy Marshall.

Season after season we sit deep inviting the opposition to come onto us; consequently we rely on counter attack as opposed to pressurising from midfield. Down to Flemm; reason why Worthy is chaffing at the bit for the defence to GET OUT!

Fleming''s shortcomings; lack of leadership; ready to lose his head and blame all and sundry for mistakes OF HIS OWN MAKING; shirks responsibility; doesn''t have Malky''s ability to get

in on set pieces; time to be put out to pasture; good servant in the past

Flemming for the Bench at BEST

 

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Although I was a big fleming fan between 2000 and 2003, he seems to have lost a lot of positional awareness.

Also I dont know how many other people noticed, but when shackell came in he was constantly screaming at Flem to push out, however FLem ignored him every time and carried on defending deep (A big problem of ours), It seems as though shack had taken over the defensive leadership after only a few games.

Flem will do a decent job in the championship, but shack and the doc are my starting pair.

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Really good posts on this topic. Fair play to Dicky for sticking up for Flem and willing to be shot at in so doing!

Flem has been great servant, great professional and club guy. I do agree that Malky was the leader at the back and with Shacks lacking some of the confidence (that will come with experienc), we lacked defensive leadership last season. As someone said, it was Shacks who tried to make Flem move up.

What Shacks needs is a partner who leads by example and is a footballer as opposed to just a stopper. Matt Jackson had his critics but was a very good footballing centre half. Someone like that would be ideal but I think a centre back is not on Worthy''s shopping list. Jacko led by example and did not scream at others whenever something went wrong. By screaming at others Flem is just trying to cover up his own deficiencies i''m afraid. He will get caught out this season (again), The Championship is a lot better in terms of quality than many of us are admitting. We underestimate it at our peril!   

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I do agree with the origional post, i think flem will be an important player next season!

I think next season, is properly hes last season tho, it is clear that he is not up to the pace and skill of the premiership! But i do believe his know-how, and experinece in this league will be pretty important!

Come august 6th i would start him with shackell at the bak! They did after all end last season together at the bak, and were then startin 2 rly find there feet!

But i think as the season progresses, we should try and start 2 concrete a relationship at the bak with Doherty and Shackell, lookin 2 the future!

Out of them two who would be the natural leader, in a couple of years time? Wel they both seem 2 be very composed and quiet lads off the pitch, but on it i think Shackell is more likely 2 be the leader, but i can see both of them doin a fine job of organising the defence in the future!

On the ball city...

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i think we have alot to thank flem for. it''s wrong to say he was at fault for all our poor performances last season. he has an important role in helping jason shackell to develop as a defender.

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If he''s "mentoring" Shackell then that''s the end of that poor lad''s career!
 
Dicky - you must have a screw loose?   Fleming''s performances last season were awful and if we are to build a strong, experienced squad to take us back to the promised land of the premiership, the less we see of Fleming the better!
 
I''m sure he''s a really nice bloke and all that, but he ain''t the answer to our prayers this time around - time to move onwards and upwards - not backwards!

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[quote]If he''s "mentoring" Shackell then that''s the end of that poor lad''s career! Dicky - you must have a screw loose? Fleming''s performances last season were awful and if we are to build a strong, ex...[/quote]

Screw loose have I?  Always been arrogant, or just making an exception in this case?

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Whilst I agree that its time to give the Doc Shacks partnership the nod, I do find the vilification (sp?) of Flem a bit out of order...firstly yes he had lots of faults last season but to blame him solely for our defensive frailties is not fair...add to that mix Helveg''s ability to pass square to the opposition on a regular basis, the lack of protection down the left hand side and the fact our midfield at times seems to be obsessed with playing on the edge of our own box. On many occasions where Flem was out of position was due to the vast acres of grass in front of him where the midfield had gone AWOL. He was deservedly player of the season 2 years ago, and yes is now past his best, but surely still has something to offer the squad.

I also find the comments that others would prefer to see Colin there strange as they can be based on no actual evidence of the players ability whatsoever.

 

 

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I''m with Dicky on this one.Cant believe what short memories you guys have - Doherty was awful in most of the games he played in last season.

Flem will be essential to our success next year.

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[quote]I''m with Dicky on this one.Cant believe what short memories you guys have - Doherty was awful in most of the games he played in last season. Flem will be essential to our success next year.[/quote]

I think it is a case of people jumping on another bandwagon - this time the "Flemmo is the cause of all our problems" bandwagon. 

Flemmo has been one of our most consistent players for the past few years.  He may not be the quickest, as I have said, but give me Flemmo over players like Helveg any day.  Flemmo did not have a great season, but lets face it who did apart from Deano?  Shacks seems to be treated as a new god, but lets face it has Flemmo ever played as badly as Shacks did against Palace in our promotion season.  I believe that in time Shacks will be a very good CB, but he aint great yet.

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Dicky, now you''re talking sense. There are these ridiculous bandwagons, and I really dislike them. The "Holt is the worst player ever and it''s all his fault", the "Svensson doesn''t care and is rubbish", the "I blame Francis" brigade. Eleven men play as a team, under guidance from the coaching staff, and collective responsibility must be taken. BUT you can only see the same mistakes so many times before you start to ask questions.

Helveg played 8 games at right back - hardly enough to base a true judgement of his worth. Doherty only played a handful of games at CB too.

To write off Doc and Helveg etc uses the same rule that everyone else has used to write off Fleming.

And the one factor that keeps coming up is not his footballing ability, more his "eyeballing" ability. He turned on so many of his own players last season, never once holding his hands up or having a quiet word in a players ear. If you watch Roy Keane he doesn''t just rollock everyone, he encourages them too. So, as a supporter, I dislike watching our boys get constantly blamed, especially when it''s not their fault. I would say the same thing to the bloke who sits next to me, and it makes no difference that it''s our "captain" doing the blaming.

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[quote]Whilst I agree that its time to give the Doc Shacks partnership the nod, I do find the vilification (sp?) of Flem a bit out of order...firstly yes he had lots of faults last season but to blame him so...[/quote]

agree 100% with this post. he will be a useful member of the squad, even if he isn''t playing. lasy year he was at fault for goals, but it was simply the back 9 sometimes that let the team down, not just flem.

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Fleming''s contract expires at the end of this season I believe - if he helps City win promotion, even as a squad player, then he deserves a testimonial and our thanks because I don''t think his contract will be renewed (as with Iwan). It is clear he is not Premiership material but neither are Shackell or Doherty (yet) and Fleming has been a very loyal player who ought to leave the club with dignity, not with some of the unfair bitching that has appeared on this thread. And I am one who firmly believes he should not be in the first team - I just believe in being fair and that some posters have very short memories.

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Dicky your last comment says it all to me. Shackell can only improve, Fleming is just going to get worse. Also, he never takes any blame on the pitch or speaking to Roy Waller afterwards. Finally, he is the only player that I have seen driving a Proton. I rest my case.

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[quote]I think it is a case of people jumping on another bandwagon - this time the "Flemmo is the cause of all our problems" bandwagon. Flemmo has been one of our most consistent players for the past few ...[/quote]

I see what you''re saying. It''s like the ''Holt was the cause of all problems'' bandwagon, yes?

But wait, Holt was dropped as a result of that ''Holt was the cause of all problems'' bandwagon and then we started winning games. Now he''s playing in Division 2!

People are wrong to accuse Fleming as being the sole reason we lost so many games, but there''s no smoke without fire and he was by far the worst player in a City shirt last season. I don''t think he just suddenly became poor overnight either, instead his downfall coincided with the depature of Malkay who I''d assume, kept him in the right positions and gave him the right instructions during the games. Without him Flem has always looked like a lost soul

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[quote]i think we have alot to thank flem for. it''s wrong to say he was at fault for all our poor performances last season. he has an important role in helping jason shackell to develop as a defender.[/quote]

Yes we do have a lot to thank Flem for, but like Roberts he has reached the stage where he needs to step down.  All Shackell will learn from Fleming is how to not tackle, not head the ball, turn sideways when the opposition shoot for goal, and blame every other defender around you when you make a mistake.

Your captain is usually one of your best players like Gerrard, Vierra, Lampard, Keane and so on, but be honest, in no way was Fleming anywhere near our best player last season.  By all means make Fleming the club captain, but give the team captain''s armband to either Safri or Francis.

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Dicky - sorry if the comment offends but if you are seriously saying that Fleming is going to be the rock on which our defence is built and that he is one of the best players in the team then yes, I do think you''ve got a screw loose!

If you look back at the games last season, you can honestly say that Fleming was at home in the Premiership can you? That Fleming was never responsible for a number of goals flooding in?

And can you really say that Fleming is the best man for the job because he did so well in the Championship last time? Don''t we need to progress as a club?

Or are you Worthy in disguise???!!!!!

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No one will be surprised by my views.

Flem should be a player written about in the past tense as far as city are concerned.  His performances last season were as abjectly woeful as the one the season be fore were good.  He has lost a yard of pace, blames fellow players for his mistakes (the now infamous glare) and rarely actually tackles.   However the bloke does deserve a place in the the city SQUAD.  Some stability is needed in the squad and he WILL provide valuable experienced cover at a decent level of championship performance if needed.  

I agree with the posters who point out that the limited performances of Helveg and Dc make it difficult to compare. 

However, and I am not a doc fan, on the couple of occassions doc partnered flem it was clear who played better - and it was not the club captain.  However doc was not alone in this - every partner fleming had last year played better game on game than flem did - charlie shacks and Doc were all better defenders.  In a reserve game I saw - and it was just the one - Doc outperformed shacks too.  

It is that - the actual level of performance - along with a building on youth mentality that persuades me that the starting partnership should be shacks and doc.  I do expect shacks to partner flem though and I will express my disappointment if last years mistakes continue.

As far as Helveg is concerned the defensive displays of the season came not from shacks but from Helveg  -despite on starting only 9 games in his rightful position. 

Give me defenders who can defend and tackle, not those who run around a lot and blame others thanks very much.

OTBC 

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I think Flem has tried his balls off for this club and I think some of the things said on this board are a real shame.

I am sure the manager picked him as captain last year for a reason and would not pick somebody who was unpopular with his team mates.

Flem has outlived many managers and I am sure it is for good reason.  Malky has hardly set the world on fire at WH, how do some people come to the conclusion that Malky ''propped up'' Flem?  Perhaps they were just a good partnership? and Shack has stated in many an interview that he is grateful for the experience at the back.

Last year we just weren''t good enough, it wasn''t just Flem.  The defence had  a massive job last year sometimes made harder for the lack of midfield.

I hate all this player bashing, give the guy a break.

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[quote]I think Flem has tried his balls off for this club and I think some of the things said on this board are a real shame. I am sure the manager picked him as captain last year for a reason and would not...[/quote]

Well said - I am glad that I started this thread as it shows that there are a lot of balanced views out there as well as the Flemmo is the devil incarnate and Shacks is God, brigade.

Don''t get me wrong, I think Shacks is a great prospect, but let''s have a bit of balance shall we.

Also, let''s show a bit of gratitude to a loyal servant of the club.

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[quote]Well said - I am glad that I started this thread as it shows that there are a lot of balanced views out there as well as the Flemmo is the devil incarnate and Shacks is God, brigade. Don''t get me wro...[/quote]

No one has doubted his committment to the club or denied the superb record he has in a city shirt - it is very rarenowadays to have a player commit to a club so long and perform with such distinction for the majority of that period and that alone commends his place in citys history.

But like all players there comes a time (like malky last season) when they can not deliver the goods - the hard evidence from last season was that Flem had reached or passed that point, especially when ALL his defensive partners played better game in game out than he did.  However he should remain a key squad member.  

You are right that we must not over-praise shacks; the lad has talent but is yet to play a full season and at the end of last season he was looking tired and his performance were not as good as when he first took his place beside flem.  That is why it is important that we have good quality centre back cover, whic his where Flem comes in. 

My belief is that our two best central defenders (not knowing how good colin is) are now shacks and Charlton but it is time to look to the future. That is why, IMO,  charlie and flem should be back up to a youthful starting pair of doc and shacks.

 

OTBC 

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