Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
ruthers1

Scouting not money our real problem?

Recommended Posts

All this talk of Austin for £14m, Koulibaly for £14m etc etc is nothing other than a massive smokescreen by the Board to make it look like we are trying.

We''ll scratch and sniff around until Tuesday and probably end up getting Mbokani in on a loan, a ''James Collins'' type on a free transfer and an over the hill or green as grass youngster for peanuts.

BUT, we''ve all been Norwich fans for as long as we could walk so why should we expect any less?

My real issue is not our inability to spend big but with our p*ss poor scouting network who seem to have about as much inspiration as Simon Cowell changing personalities on a talent show judging panel.

All the names they come up with are either a) predictable or b) on everybody else''s radar anyway - so what''s the point? Let''s face it we''ll ALWAYS get outbid by our richer premier league rivals and always have done.

If we''re not prepared to splash the cash then we need to have a scouting system that works - like Swansea City for example.

A few years ago they bought a certain Michu for £2 million who set the premier league alight. Ok he picked up injuries and his star has fallen somewhat since but just £2million for the leagues top scorer and player of the season? What a coup!

This year they''ve done it again having signed another gem (on a free this time) from Marseille in the name of Andre Ayew. Sensational player - scored one and set up the other in their win over Man U today.

How come they can identify a Michu and a Ayew and we can''t? Same size club with similar resources to us but constantly punching above their weight and making us look ridiculous in the transfer market by comparison.

How frustrating?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="ruthers1"]All this talk of Austin for £14m, Koulibaly for £14m etc etc is nothing other than a massive smokescreen by the Board to make it look like we are trying.[/quote]When did the board announce we''d bid those prices for those players?  I must have missed it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unfortunately the club made the statement right at the start of the summer that we would be buying from the british market.

all well and good , but it would appear that we''re not prepared to pay the money that goes with it.

the british market''s prices dictate that we will be priced out of many of our targets.

i very much suspect that we have very litte european scouting network to speak of....not entirely unreasonable as why would we as a championship club last season, however when competing against other premier league clubs in the transfer market, the full effect of the money involved in the english PL is only fully demonstrated when ,not buying from other english clubs....but by buying players from clubs in countries who havent got the same money as the premier league.

......If we have a reasonable estimation of £10-£12m (add £5m to that if we take Bouremouths offer for Grabban) to spend on a striker or a defender....nobody can tell me that in the whole wide world of football, there is no striker out there that we couldt sign that wouldnt be better than Jerome....or defender better than Martin?

The fact that we seemingly cant find them is a damning slight on our scouting system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We still don''t know what has happened to all that premier league money

McNally and the Stowmarket 2 are very very quiet

As guardians of our club they have a duty to tell us. It''s all very worrying very worrying indeed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We clearly have some form of European scouting that shows from players we have signed and attempted to sign in previous seasons. Fer was signed and sold for a profit from Holland, Tettey purchased from France for a bargain price, we signed Van Wolfswinkel from Portugal and Ofoe from Belgium. We have tried to sign Toivanen, Alderwereild, Destro and the elusive Quagrialella. Mbokani looks like he is coming in too and we have been looking at a few defenders in Italy and France. This all adds up to a network that is working to bring players to the club. The success of which can only be seen layer once team is all in place and playing together.

In regards to Swansea their situation is different. When Laudrup took over he came from Spain so had an excellent knowledge of the game there and hence a knowledge of Michu and a few other players he purchased. Ayew has indeed looked good so far but he is out of our range as a team new in the league and is hardly an unknown after being linked with moves to England for a number of seasons. Also I might point out that a Michu or an Ayew doesn''t have to come from abroad, what''s wrong with a Snodgrass who was sold for a healthy profit or a Redmond who looks like he will one day go onto bigger things (3.2m paid) or even a Mulumbu who I think will be a great signing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Further evidence of what we already knew already: without new starters in our defence and up front we will be relegated. Let''s hope we manage to salvage something from what seems an increasingly farcical window. Par from these four games was six points, we''re all ready having to play catch up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Fer was signed and sold for a profit from Holland, Tettey purchased from France for a bargain price, we signed Van Wolfswinkel from Portugal and Ofoe from Belgium."

Yes of course we have "some form of European network" as you put it but your next sentence (above) highlights where you''ve failed to grasp the real point.

Three out of the four players you mention (Tettey aside) have been a spectacular failure for us, ie our ''scouting'' has resulted in us landing more duds than gems.

And where did I say it had to be abroad?! Just because I mentioned Michu and Ayew I think you came to that conclusion all by yourself.

Also so what if Laudrup had knowledge of Spain? Neil''s got knowledge of Scotland but surely you''re not suggesting Tony Andreu is the best player north of the border are you?

It''s quality not quantity and performances not profit I''m talking about and our scouting/knowledge or whatever you want to call it is not good enough by far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In general terms, managers often have their own scouting network who go with them from club to club whereas scouts for an academy system tend to work for a club regardless of manager.AN won''t have had much of a scouting network whilst at Hamilton Accies and his initial task at Norwich was to achieve promotion with much of the squad that he inherited.Without a comprehensive scouting network it is common-sense to target British-based players as you can quickly find out a lot about them. Once those avenues become exhausted you then look to loan players from foreign clubs before eventually taking a gamble on signing foreign players that you might not have known much about and so take longer to perform due diligence.A lot of clubs have very limited scouting networks and are heavily reliant upon agents recommending players to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

some people, might suggest, that this fckwit might well be responsible for our naive amateur laughable and very public via the press "transfer dealings" this windowhttp://www.edp24.co.uk/sport/norwich-city/lee_darnbrough_confirmed_as_new_head_of_scouting_at_norwich_city_1_4143444how the fk lee "no one knows who the hell he is or why he should have been given the chance" darnbrough got the job ill never know

bunley??? LOLin the words of modern disaffected urban youths - wasteman! bad bad bad choice on behalf of the board, and as i said in a previous thread i cant honestly remeber in 30 + years a transfer window/period/season where the club has DECLARED its targets in the press before or during the bidding process, rumours are one things, but the club making official statements on bids?!?! joke tingz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fer was never a spectacular failure. He put in some good performances was a little inconsistent but was good enough for another club to pay around double what we did for him. Ofoe the jury is still out on and Van Wolfswinkel well yeah we know that didn''t work out but that has been debated enough.

So if your point with Ayew and Michu is that they were gems scouted and signed for little money then you need to look at the rest of our team. Ruddy, Martin, Johnson, Howson, Jerome were all purchased for small fees and have made massive contributions to the team. I might also add Michu only had one good season and now they can''t give him away. Ayew has only played a few games and has so far been good but the season is still young. Where as I would say the players I have mentioned have contributed to our team over a number of seasons helping us to progress as a club. They are not signed by accident, there is plenty of scouting and due diligence done to find them and make sure they are the right fit not just in terms of ability but personality and mentality wise. If our scouting was so poor in recent years we would have never made the progress we have to climb from the dark days of Grant, Roeder and Gunn.

In regards to Alex Neils knowledge of Scotland I am sure he would have thought about if there are players playing there that would be suitable. His knowledge gained from working there very recently would give us an advantage in knowing if there are gems to be had as no doubt he analysed and watched a lot of teams and players. How you have come to think I am suggesting Andreu is the best Scotland has to offer I have no idea. I made the point of Laudrup working there because that at the time gave Swansea an extra insight into the players there and the contacts he had. You held up Swansea as a beacon of scouting and at that time I think that''s why they had what you believe is a stronger scouting network. How ever they too have failures, we just don''t remember them like our own. When they sign a player that doesn''t do well they slip into obscurity and we as outside fans won''t notice most of them. When it happens at our own club it is highlighted and discussed because we are obviously more personally invested in the situation. I''m sure Swansea and every other club has players that fans talk about and everyone wonders why we bought X when they got X who is playing so well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the issue with declaring in interviews that you''d like to strengthen a certain area of the squad is that agents just make up rumours for a player that wants out/more game time and sees if it sticks.

Secondly there''s asking the availability of a player and bidding for them. Got to remember if you enquire about 50 players, you''ll then have a smaller shortlist of targets from that that are genuinely available but some names now rejected may still stick. Dwight Gayle is the one that sticks in my mind, rejecting Bristol City because he believes were interested...We clearly have enquired and its pricked his ears up yet we clearly have plenty more targets ahead of him or we would have paid up ages ago. (On a separate note I think he might end up here now given the possible departure of grabban)

We''re trying to elevate the squad with genuine quality and bids are obviously going to get rejected, it''s millions of pounds were talking about here. signing a Collins from West Ham isn''t a bad signing and will be ok in the squad but spending serious cash on a number 1 player in a given position is what''s needed to really establish in the premier league.

Next 2 days will be very interesting and will be plenty of swings and roundabouts, although the Neil interview saying he''s excited about the whole occasion I imagine he''s already got wheels firmly in motion for who''s coming and going.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think that the failing of our scouting network has been to spot potential - a year ago both Afobe and Andre Gray were bought by their respective clubs for just £2m each. Those clubs were able to identify their ability, which was already apparent, and were willing to take a risk. Those players are now going for at least five times that.

Whoever we end up buying, the challenge now is to spot the next Afobe before he too is priced beyond our reach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"]F*ck me ! It''s like a scene from " one flew over the cuckoos nest " on this thread ,,, with a handful of waveneys characters arguing with himself !!![/quote]

It looks like a reasonable discussion to me - or it was until you butted in.    It is clear that agents are rampant at this time of year - and scouting networks, however big, or active, will be affected by agents touting players to them.   It then becomes a minefield of too many players being touted, too many rumours and a lot of unsubstantiated speculation.  All good for the media, but largely a waste of time for the rest of us.   A bit like your post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Colourful Canary"]I think that the failing of our scouting network has been to spot potential - a year ago both Afobe and Andre Gray were bought by their respective clubs for just £2m each. Those clubs were able to identify their ability, which was already apparent, and were willing to take a risk. Those players are now going for at least five times that.

Whoever we end up buying, the challenge now is to spot the next Afobe before he too is priced beyond our reach.[/quote]

Last summer, in our position, we needed to get promoted as soon as possible and players like Gray and Afobe would''ve been too risky as they were totally unproven at Championship level.

Instead, we went for more proven players in Jerome in Grabban, and they scored the goals to fire us to promotion.

Our scouting network may have, or probably did, notice Gray and Afobe, but ultimately the club thought we needed to go for a safer option- which as we can see now, was the correct decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It''s not just the scouting it the whole way the club is being run.

Making ridiculous bids for players which just hack off the clubs we are trying to buy from.

Money not being spent, players walking out the club. Everyone else we haven''t

It been a disappointing summer and something has to be done.

McNally out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I totally accept that we work in a more restricted budget and have been frightened after the RVW failure. That said over the last couple of years our general standard of talent spotting has been bang average with a few good ones in between ie Jerome, but most of us on this board could probably have spotted him. The money wasted on RVW, Lafferty, Miguel by our budget has been very poor indeed. I have very limited confidence in our scouting albeit i suppose the manager has the final say, but he will only make judgement on names that are suggested to him, with the odd one off his own bat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Trawling canary"]It''s not just the scouting it the whole way the club is being run.

Making ridiculous bids for players which just hack off the clubs we are trying to buy from.

Money not being spent, players walking out the club. Everyone else we haven''t

It been a disappointing summer and something has to be done.

McNally out[/quote]

I refer you to this thread.  Try and understand. Parma''s masterclass no 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Colourful Canary"]I think that the failing of our scouting network has been to spot potential - a year ago both Afobe and Andre Gray were bought by their respective clubs for just £2m each. Those clubs were able to identify their ability, which was already apparent, and were willing to take a risk. Those players are now going for at least five times that.

Whoever we end up buying, the challenge now is to spot the next Afobe before he too is priced beyond our reach.[/quote]

Fair point, and something that strikes me too. Our "scouts" very rarely sees potential. For strikers, it is very important with pace. If you find a pacy guy, with a bit of talent, he can be a rough diamond, and with coaching be a good player.

Having said that, if Gray and Afobe had been bought by us 2 years ago, based on potential, they would likely have been rotting in the reserves, not getting a chance, like the Murphys.

The reason these players come along is that they are actually getting a chance at the clubs that bought them.

Since we see ourselves as a bigger club than, at least, Brentford, there is no guarantee that Gray would have played much here last season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We don''t have a "scouting network" -and thats the case for just about all clubs. At least not in the way people imagine it.

 

The perception is that we either have (or should have) around 10-12 full time scouts, all permanently employed by the club with the salary and expenses to go with it who spend all of their time, at either their own or the clubs behest, travelling the UK, Europe and beyond, constantly watching games, scouting players and looking for those little gems that they can recommend to the club before anyone else finds or otherwise hears about them.

 

Well we don''t.

 

Like just about all clubs, we ''employ'' scouts on an ad-hoc and mainly freelance basis on a game by game basis. These are the people who will, when required, pass on details of players to our head of recruitment, he, in turn, will then decide whether to take the next step up and take a look at said player himself. If he sees him and is impressed-and that might be for 6,7, 8 or so games, then, and only then, will a recommendation be made for the Manager and his assistants to come and look at that player.

 

Even a player like Brady will have been subjected to that-we''ll have had someone watching him on our behalf for a few games before that was esscalated-AN may have been certain he was a player we wanted, but, nonetheless, that is how the whole procedure would have started. Its a lot more long and drawn out for these overseas bargans that clubs like Swansea have managed to pick up, but, the fact of the matter there is that they have invested time and money in secuting resources to do just that-over three, six months or even a year-even the majority of the scouts doing that will have been freelancing for them. Most games have a load of scouts at them, everyone knows who everyone else is but they may not know or let on who they are there on behalf of (ie) which club. Its a large and complicated network smothered in secrecy and late night phone calls from the car in club car park somewhere after a game. Its not well paid and most of them barely eke a living but it keeps them involved in the game in some way, they never know when an opening might come about to do some coaching somewhere if they are in the right place at the right time.

 

Look at how many interviews you read with Managers or Coaches and they come out with the line of "... I was doing some scouting for ''x'' and...." or "...''x'' at ''y'' asked me if I wanted to keep myself busy by doing some scouting for them..." -thats the essence of the scouting network, lots and lots of ex-players and coaches doing the miles and watching the games in the hope they can spot a player, get him a move and help themselves in the process.

 

We used to have lots of ex-players doing that sort of work for us on a part time basis-Asa Hartford, Alan Durban and Stuart McCall were three. Flecky certainly used to in and around East Anglia, I don''t know if he still does.

 

That will be the clubs scouting network-the same people who do scouting for other clubs "as and when"-yes, we''ll have some who are more often than not used by us, but, even so, they won''t be fully employed by the club.

 

This book is well worth a read-

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0099580268/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=569136327&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1899807950&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=1R2XBWMF4SKBQ2KJFQJ4

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have to disagree Yorkshire you are highlighting one seasons worth of players where more were wrong than right and saying that as a result our scouting has been average for a while. Last season mistakes were made but the overwhelming evidence is that previously we got a lot more right than wrong. The picture is being distorted because in Van Wolfswinkel we made a high profile one that went wrong but it is easy to forget other good signings like Olson for 2/3m, Redmond 3m, Fer 4m, Snodgrass for 3m, Howson for 2m, Johnson and Whittaker on frees, Martin for 150k, Ruddy for 500k. This season our business looks good too Dorrans for 3m looks a great signing for the money, Mulumbu looked a cut above in pre season and was a free and Brady looks a better deal all the time.

The reported bids we have made show that we are not scared of spending some money and making a marquee signing, 10m for Afobe is a lot of money.

As for saying anyone on here could have spotted Jerome I remember the general reaction when we signed him was that he wasn''t going to be first choice but a squad player and no more than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...