Russell Martin

[Ray 111]

Mrs M,

Your reply to ellis was

He played right back, not CB. He''s not good enough to play at CB regularly for us which he''s proved this season; you can''t blame other people for his mistakes ellis.

Ellis had said how well he played since Seb was ''injured/dropped'', which was four games past, so factually you had your facts wrong, although factually you are correct re his last game, it was just the other 3 (75%) of games where you were factually incorrect.

Let''s hope the score this weekend is a NCFC win, FACT.

[mrs miggins 0]

By saying he isn''t good enough to play there regularly, this doesn''t mean that he hasn''t played there regularly (as he has as you point out). The point was that I don''t think he''s good enough to play there regularly over the likes of Bennett or Bassong say.

Just because AN has played him at CB and as a sweeper in the 3 games before that, it certainly doesn''t mean he''s right (as we''ve seen previously with his reluctance to drop Whittaker, putting Howson on the right, Brady at left back, Rudd in goal for too long etc), and surely the last game proved that with us getting another clean sheet. (I say ''another'' because of course the last one we got which was v Southampton, Martin played at RB and again Bennett played at CB, same the game before that v Villa, and the one before that where Martin wasn''t in the back 4, the clean sheet before then as well v West Brom in the cup again it was Bennett in the middle...so that is my point and those are the facts). Link to results where you can look at the team played below.

So I think you may have missed the point or perhaps I didn''t make myself clear enough.

http://www.skysports.com/norwich-city-results

[Jacko 0]

Mbokani up front on his own? Give me strength.

[mrs miggins 0]

Let me guess, you''d have Bamford?

[GJP 79]

Don''t think there was much reluctance to drop Whittaker. He''s been dropped and pretty much "frozen out" since October.

He could perhaps feel a bit harshly treated considering the form of other individuals and the team since then.

[mrs miggins 0]

Personally I felt there was a real reluctance at the start of the season to drop Whitts to ensure Martin played at CB. It took a while (too long imo) for AN to drop him.

[GJP 79]

Lot of people thought getting Whittaker out was the answer. The form and quality of football in the months since suggests otherwise.

[hogesar 9,618]

[quote user="GJP"]Don''t think there was much reluctance to drop Whittaker. He''s been dropped and pretty much "frozen out" since October.

He could perhaps feel a bit harshly treated considering the form of other individuals and the team since then.[/quote]

I think Whittaker has been unlucky - although I presume the fact he''s not been able to get in the team even at our lowest moments in the season defensively, suggests he probably hasn''t been shining in training.

[mrs miggins 0]

GJP wrote the following post at 17/03/2016 1:49 PM:

Lot of people thought getting Whittaker out was the answer. The form and quality of football in the months since suggests otherwise.

-------------------------

It was never the answer, but it would definitely help. I think most know our troubles don''t lie on one particular player.

Having said that, I don''t think we''ve got a clean sheet in the league when Whitts has played, I could be wrong though on that one?

[GJP 79]

You might be right, not sure.

Were we in the relegation zone?

[nutty nigel 7,509]

I can see why he persevered with Whitts. And it looks to me like the same reason he brought Pinto who''s hopefully an upgrade on Whitts. High fullbacks were an integral part of our success under Neil last season and it looks like the changes to that strategy after Newcastle are only temporary. It''s good to have more than one way of playing though.

The view that defenders defend and attackers score goals is too one dimensional. In the last 10 or so years we have been better defensively when Iwan or Holty have played up front....

[Ray 111]

Mrs M,

I agree wholeheartedly with the last point you made, which was "..perhaps I didn''t make myself clear enough".

I also agree with the facts re clean sheet, etc. However, whether he is good enough to play CB regularly or whether AN is right to do so, is not fact, it is your opinion, which I may or may not agree with.

The point I was making, and I guess I may have not made myself clear enough either, was that he has looked a better player when Seb hasn''t been there, even when he played in the back 2 or 3, it doesn''t mean he was a worse player previously, just that he may have had to provide cover for Seb, which in turn affected his own game but then that is my opinion, which you may or may not agree with?

Opinions eh, can''t live with ''em and can''t live without them!

[firststeps 0]

Like I said at the start of the season, Martin in our back four will relegate us. I hate to say I told you so, but it looks like it''s going to come true.

Although I have to admit, Martin is not the sole contributing factor, the fact we haven''t got a goal scorer will equally be our downfall.

I hope I''m wrong.

[mrs miggins 0]

If we get relegated though you would look a bit silly firsteps as you cannot prove that Martin is the reason for our relegation.

Although I agree with you that he should not be played at CB, I''ve always said that he should be at RB. Yet having brought Pinto in in the Jan transfer window I''d say play him, especially as Redmond is now injured.

[mrs miggins 0]

Ray wrote the following post at 17/03/2016 6:54 PM:I also agree with the facts re clean sheet, etc. However, whether he is good enough to play CB regularly or whether AN is right to do so, is not fact, it is your opinion, which I may or may not agree with.

-------------------------------------------------

I don''t believe I ever said this was a fact though?

This is my opinion, and I used facts to support my argument/opinion.

[Ray 111]

Mrs M,

To be pedantic and to quote you, you did say "Just because AN has played him at CB and as a sweeper in the 3 games before that, it certainly doesn''t mean he''s right"

I took .."it certainly doesn''t mean he is right" as a statement of fact, on your part, that he was wrong, that said I''m happy to accept it is your opinion and no more and it was supported with facts, although I don''t agree with your ''causal effects'' are provable but it would be boring if we all had the same opinion.

I have an opinion that we will stay up, let''s hope it morphs into a fact.

[mrs miggins 0]

I have to say then that it is certainly not ''factual''. By saying; ''it certainly doesn''t mean he is right,'' it by the same token doesn''t mean that he is wrong, just that like any other person AN also has an opinion; whether I think he is right or not obviously has no bearing on whether something is true, so I have to say I believe you''re mistaken.

Some people (e.g. Lakey) say that Russell Martin should be our regular CB and have justified this view by saying that the current manager and previous ''manager'' Neil Adams played him there (implying that they therefore then must be right). My argument on this is simply that the manager''s decision is not always the best decision; just because he has played Martin fairly regularly at CB, it certainly doesn''t mean that he''s right.

[Ray 111]

Mrs M,

I think we are applying a different meaning to word ''certainly'', rather than get tied up in anymore semantics, let''s both agree we are both right in our own heads and probably sending everyone else to sleep??

Chat again soon no doubt.

[mrs miggins 0]

Indeed, the last three pages of this thread are certainly ones to forget.

[westcoastcanary 0]

Mrs Miggins wrote: "....... Some people (e.g. Lakey) say that Russell Martin should be our regular

CB and have justified this view by saying that the current manager and

previous ''manager'' Neil Adams played him there (implying that they

therefore then must be right). My argument on this is simply that the

manager''s decision is not always the best decision; just because he has

played Martin fairly regularly at CB, it certainly doesn''t mean that

he''s right."The question is not "Is the manager always right?" but "To whose opinion is it reasonable to give greatest weight?" I don''t know about LDC but speaking for myself, I am inclined to attach rather more weight to the opinions of Gordon Strachan, Neil Adams and Alex Neil (not to mention RM''s fellow professionals) as opposed to the opinions of sundry contributors to this forum. This thread has now run to 44 pages, largely consisting of chest-thumping proclamations of "MY OPINION". To be honest, I am not interested one little bit in, for example, firststeps''s opinion. What I find depressing is the almost complete disinterest shown in trying to understand Alex Neil''s reasons for making the selections he does. Maybe the answer is that it is beyond the capacity of a forum like this to seriously engage with such questions or to do much by way of improving our understanding of the game and our team (the notable exceptions in this regard being Parma''s Masterclasses and the threads they generate).

[hogesar 9,618]

Pretty much agree with all that westcoast.

[mrs miggins 0]

I disagree, my point is that the question is neither; ''is the manager always right'' or ''to whose opinion is it reasonable to give greatest weight''- the point I was making was that it in fact has no bearing on if something is true.

By saying; "I am inclined to attach rather more weight to the opinions of Gordon Strachan, Neil Adams and Alex Neil (not to mention RM''s fellow professionals) as opposed to the opinions of sundry contributors to this forum." on the other hand I could say well Paul Lambert and Chris Hughton played him at right back and also believe they knew what they were doing, so thats why I was pointing out how weak that argument/point was and to use it to support this particular opinion (that Martin should be regularly played at CB).

You also seem to be complaining about how this has been 44 pages of people spouting their opinion; I have to say - welcome to a message board.

I''m sure you''re not interested in many peoples opinions, including mine, therefore I would have to say don''t read it. But if you would like to create a more in depth analysis like Parma''s posts I encourage you to do so.

The link below is a thread from one of Parma''s threads which discuss the role of Russell Martin in our team. The page it is linked to (page 4) also has a post of mine which goes into a bit of detail on the role of not just Martin, but Steven Whittaker as well and how he was used last season, linking videos to explain my point. I say that AN had found the perfect role for him and almost set the whole system around Whitts himself, yet also that due to his limitations, he won''t last long.

http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun-forums/cs/forums/4/3262619/ShowPost.aspx#3262619

[Grant Holts Moustache 105]

A quote for westcoast, I always try to bear this in mind when I see people who justify being wrong because it is their opinion.

''You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant."

Harlan Ellison

[firststeps 0]

So he wants to lead our team in next seasons push for promotion. It will be interesting to see the poll results.

I have continually knocked this bloke. But surely it is now time to seek a leader, someone who can play football to a decent standard and organise his colleagues on the field.

I will be very disappointed if he claims a starting 11 position next season.

[Crafty Canary 495]

Another of those totally pointless headlines. It would have been much more newsworthy had he been quoted as saying he wants to lead the club to League One.

[CanaryOne 0]

Liability last time we were in the Champs , hope he will only be a bench warmer next season but its Norwich so he will almost certainly be centre half and captain .

[hogesar 9,618]

[quote user="CanaryOne"]Liability last time we were in the Champs , hope he will only be a bench warmer next season but its Norwich so he will almost certainly be centre half and captain . [/quote]

[IMG]http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/3544309.jpg[/IMG]

[Splendid Rush 2]

[quote user="CanaryOne"]Liability last time we were in the Champs , hope he will only be a bench warmer next season but its Norwich so he will almost certainly be centre half and captain . [/quote]

Wasn''t he in the team of the season last time we were in the Champs?

[Grant Holts Moustache 105]

He was indeed splendid rush.

[firststeps 0]

He was, but he was shocking, it was the most ridiculous nomination ever!

Anyway, he should do the honourable thing and step aside.