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nat_canaries

RVW again (sorry)

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RvW''s 5 goals in 24 matches for St Etienne doesn''t look that great, but 10 of those appearances were as sub. He also had 4 goals in 6 Europa league games.

Our game against Cambridge could have ended in an embarrassing draw or worse, but for RvW''s well timed run for his goal and then an even better assist after beating his man then cutting back for Toffolo''s goal.

None of this is proof that he would succeed in the PL this time, but I suspect it may have given AN pause for thought and the German games will be another chance to show what he can do (or not).

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No apology needed (in title). RvW is one of the main topics pre-season. If he does well in Germany, he could well be reintegrated into our premiership squad. Can AN get the best out of him? Hopefully!

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[quote user="Yelloow Since 72"]RvW''s 5 goals in 24 matches for St Etienne doesn''t look that great, but 10 of those appearances were as sub. He also had 4 goals in 6 Europa league games.

Our game against Cambridge could have ended in an embarrassing draw or worse, but for RvW''s well timed run for his goal and then an even better assist after beating his man then cutting back for Toffolo''s goal.

None of this is proof that he would succeed in the PL this time, but I suspect it may have given AN pause for thought and the German games will be another chance to show what he can do (or not).[/quote]He scored one Europa League goal in six games, against one of the lesser teams in their group.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Yelloow Since 72"]RvW''s 5 goals in 24 matches for St Etienne doesn''t look that great, but 10 of those appearances were as sub. He also had 4 goals in 6 Europa league games.

Our game against Cambridge could have ended in an embarrassing draw or worse, but for RvW''s well timed run for his goal and then an even better assist after beating his man then cutting back for Toffolo''s goal.

None of this is proof that he would succeed in the PL this time, but I suspect it may have given AN pause for thought and the German games will be another chance to show what he can do (or not).[/quote]He scored one Europa League goal in six games, against one of the lesser teams in their group.[/quote]
Was going to say 4 in 6 didn''t sound like anything i''ve read. I think he scored a couple against some low-league teams in another competition though?

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[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Yelloow Since 72"]RvW''s 5 goals in 24 matches for St Etienne doesn''t look that great, but 10 of those appearances were as sub. He also had 4 goals in 6 Europa league games.

Our game against Cambridge could have ended in an embarrassing draw or worse, but for RvW''s well timed run for his goal and then an even better assist after beating his man then cutting back for Toffolo''s goal.

None of this is proof that he would succeed in the PL this time, but I suspect it may have given AN pause for thought and the German games will be another chance to show what he can do (or not).[/quote]He scored one Europa League goal in six games, against one of the lesser teams in their group.[/quote]
Was going to say 4 in 6 didn''t sound like anything i''ve read. I think he scored a couple against some low-league teams in another competition though?
[/quote]He scored 3 in the French Cup, one against a third-tier side and two against a second-tier side.

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Based on your view then Purple, Jerome has no chance of scoring many in the premiership, he scored a few in our second tier but his record in top flight is on average 1 goal per 8 games.

It''s not about what has been more like what they can deliver if they are here. Under Neil things might improve ala Jerome & Hooper.

To be honest with a strike force of RVW, Hooper & Jerome we have never gone into a premiership with this potential quality up top. Champions league experienced players!

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I watched about 20mins of one of RvW''s games for St. Etienne in that time he never once touched the ball, he made intelligent runs he lost his marker and got into space but not once in that time was the ball played to him, he can''t score without the ball.

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Not sure how Alex Neil ''improved'' Jerome he scored more goals under Neil Adams in 20 games than he did under Alex Neil in 22 games.

I personally don''t think he''ll score that many in the Premier League - he managed one in his previous season there, the same as RvW and Norwich desperately need someone who is an improvement on both.

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[quote user="Indy"]Based on your view then Purple, Jerome has no chance of scoring many in the premiership, he scored a few in our second tier but his record in top flight is on average 1 goal per 8 games.

It''s not about what has been more like what they can deliver if they are here. Under Neil things might improve ala Jerome & Hooper.

To be honest with a strike force of RVW, Hooper & Jerome we have never gone into a premiership with this potential quality up top. Champions league experienced players![/quote]
Regardless of any implications you''re directing at Purple, Jerome is a far, far more accomplished striker than RVW.

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All this talk about RVW making a go of it here is just wishful thinking.AN might turn out be the best manager we''ve ever had but he''ll need a miracle to make this one work. RVW had a very '' so-so '' season at St Etienne and almost certainly would have gone back to Sporting a couple of weeks ago if he''d have been happy to take a pay cut.Even allowing for the toxic Hughton effect RVW''s season here under '' cautious Chris '' was an un-mitigated disaster.We can all dream that it may come good, and I''ll be the first to grovel if it does, but this one is dead in the water. Cut our losses, put it down to experience and move on.

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Bethnal - it''s got nothing to do with magical powers.

It''s about rocking the boat with a potentially exceptional manager. Despite what you said earlier, managers often walk if they disagree with how they''re being told to run things - case in point, another no nonsense man, Tony Pulis at Palace. Alex Neil''s are not a ten a penny nor easy to find for us and the board clearly have immense trust in our young manager and know we so far have our very own ''Special One''. Things with RvW have moved on since Sporting''s interest a few weeks ago and I''m certain the boards stance will have changed if Alex Neil has said I believe under my management Ricky can become a key player (as opposed to 4th choice striker).

We all know that the board have the ultimate say on anything at the club but let''s be realistic here - they aren''t going to tell Alex that whatever his opinion we''re selling him regardless. It''s clear they have a fantastic relationship with him and clearly trust his decisions wholeheartedly - and that appears to be mutual. If Alex Neil has indicated Ricky is doing everything right then there will be no need to sell as it stands - not to mention any striker worth his salt that we want to bring in is going to be asking for £40,000 a week in the Prem anyway. You maybe right, and he maybe sold - but I don''t believe that''ll be against Alex Neil''s wishes.

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[quote user="ron obvious"]On a side note, I would take issue with Hooper being the best finisher at the club. I remember his first first goal being superb & thinking yes, we''ve found our quality striker at last. He then made a complete hash of his next couple of excellent chances before scoring a cracker again.

He certainly didn''t look like a quality finisher at Cambridge, completely mishitting a good chance when in the clear & under no pressure.

So, although he can produce some impressive goals, for me he is far too inconsistent to be called our best finisher. I''d say Jerome is better, & even Grabban not a lot worse in reality.[/quote]

RVW is probably the best technical finisher at the club.  Jerome/Grabban/Hooper all have at times been careless or lacking in front of goal.  Now the one goal RVW did score was a superb finish, there is no doubt - and if given the ball in a striking position - he will undoubtedly score or get the ball on target more often than not - that was his reputation and apparent ability when we boiught him.  The problem was it rarely happened that he was given the ball in a good position - despite as many have noted - the fact that he does indeed (or did to start with) make intelligent runs.   The same apparently at St. Etienne. 

Is that RVW''s fault or the fault of the players around him?  The maxim was at Sporting - give him the ball and he will score - well, how often was he given the ball in a scoring position while at Norwich?  Hardly ever.   The lack of form in the whole team that season is well documented - the slow midfield, the giving the ball away rather than get it forward etc etc -  so it was no surprise that with a lack of service he looked poor and lost confidence.   

His game would imo thrive in a game where the action gets stretched - forward runs then become much more effective on the counter attack and later in games where teams may be chasing a game.   You don''t lose your technique or ability as a footballer - but you can lose form and confidence.  I strongly believe RVW  still has the ability that he showed at Sporting - and given the right circumstances he will do the business.

Aparrently in training, last time he was here, he always looked fantastic in front of goal - so quite possibly the same is happening again. If so, that would make AN sit up and think that perhaps this RVW fellow could actually be the striker we thought all along - and AN does get the best out of players.

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[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="Indy"]Based on your view then Purple, Jerome has no chance of scoring many in the premiership, he scored a few in our second tier but his record in top flight is on average 1 goal per 8 games.

It''s not about what has been more like what they can deliver if they are here. Under Neil things might improve ala Jerome & Hooper.

To be honest with a strike force of RVW, Hooper & Jerome we have never gone into a premiership with this potential quality up top. Champions league experienced players![/quote]
Regardless of any implications you''re directing at Purple, Jerome is a far, far more accomplished striker than RVW.
[/quote]I might substitute the word "effective" for "accomplished" but otherwise quite so. By he way, I followed a shirt with "hogesar" on it down the exit staircase at Wembley. Was that you or do you have a fan club!

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Rich T wrote: "I think it''s fair to assume that a SCOUT recommended RVW .........."

Indeed, and most probably that scout would have been Graham Carr, who joined Hughton''s backroom team at Newcastle the summer Toon returned to the top division. Carr has a reputation second to none for his knowledge of talent in the Dutch, Belgian and French leagues.

Re. where RVW can be played, in his early days in Holland he was usually played in a withdrawn role behind the main striker, which is how he first caught people''s eye. In Portugal he played in a more advanced role, which he said at the time was his preference. AN asking him to play deeper would simply mean his reverting to how he originally played very successfully as a youngster in Holland.

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I think there are too many on here with ''I told you so'' agendas.

Surely everyone wants him to be a success.

For me he is easily our best technical and smartest forward. If we can utilise him correctly, he can come good!

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[quote user="CDMullins"]I think there are too many on here with ''I told you so'' agendas.

Surely everyone wants him to be a success.

For me he is easily our best technical and smartest forward. If we can utilise him correctly, he can come good![/quote]

Agreed.

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CDMullins, I think that''s the best post on this topic. People seem to have an agenda against the bloke, which isn''t fair. He hasn''t been demanding things or throwing his toys out of the pram and hasn''t said a bad word about NCFC. (That I know of!)

Yes, he cost a lot of money. (Not his fault) And unfortunately, his first season was a disaster. But if he''s here to stay, then everyone needs to get behind him and give him the confidence he sorely needs.

RE. AN having the final say. Didn''t he come here with the attitude that he is the manager, he has the final say on his players/potential players, rather than a board behind him?

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[quote user="CDMullins"]I think there are too many on here with ''I told you so'' agendas.

Surely everyone wants him to be a success.

For me he is easily our best technical and smartest forward. If we can utilise him correctly, he can come good![/quote]I don''t believe that is at all true. The general view here when he signed was that it was a good acquisition. Most posters were optimistic. Many thought we had got a real bargain. A few were mildly sceptical or just didn''t know enough to judge, but I can''t remember anyone attacking the deal.From all I have read the posters who now are criticising van Wolfswinkel were initially supportive or agnostic but have now decided, based on his last two seasons, that he just isn''t very good. It is actually the opposite of "I told you so".

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="hogesar"][quote user="Indy"]Based on your view then Purple, Jerome has no chance of scoring many in the premiership, he scored a few in our second tier but his record in top flight is on average 1 goal per 8 games.

It''s not about what has been more like what they can deliver if they are here. Under Neil things might improve ala Jerome & Hooper.

To be honest with a strike force of RVW, Hooper & Jerome we have never gone into a premiership with this potential quality up top. Champions league experienced players![/quote]
Regardless of any implications you''re directing at Purple, Jerome is a far, far more accomplished striker than RVW.
[/quote]I might substitute the word "effective" for "accomplished" but otherwise quite so. By he way, I followed a shirt with "hogesar" on it down the exit staircase at Wembley. Was that you or do you have a fan club![/quote]
Effective is perhaps the correct way of phrasing it. Basically, he''s taller, better in the air, stronger, faster, more athletic, and better at holding the ball up than anything i''ve seen from RvW.
Whilst I like to think i''m a popular guy, I''m yet to have anyone commit themselves to purchasing a NCFC shirt with ''Hogesar'' on the back. Or any other shirt for that matter. Thus, that would have been me!
As for the "I Told You So" accusations, i''ll freely admit I thought he was a good signing at the time. Little bit cautious purely because if he was as good as people were saying I didn''t understand why he was signing for us! I was positive nonetheless.
However, whilst LDC etc are more then entitled to their view (however wrong it may be), there is literally no evidence that RVW is the best technical striker / finisher at the club. You can big up that one goal (an average header on the back post, I think) as much as you like. And he was restricted to chances, but so was Hooper. Yet Hooper scored more, in the same system, same personnel. 
I''m not even Hooper''s biggest fan but he has far more to his game than RVW. As does Jerome. RVW wanted to leave, would have done if it wasn''t for the wage cut. He''s not going to be happy being third choice (fourth personally, I prefer Grabban) and the board aren''t going to be happy paying £40,000 a week for a striker who at best sit''s on the bench.

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Either way he had an undeniable good record until he signed for us. If he set the league alight, take bony for example, we''d all be laughing at how we have a 25 million striker.

Can sit there and blame whoever you like but ultimately it Was 100% worth the risk when we did get him. Our 20 goal scorer last season only managed a couple all of the previous season...

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="CDMullins"]I think there are too many on here with ''I told you so'' agendas.

Surely everyone wants him to be a success.

For me he is easily our best technical and smartest forward. If we can utilise him correctly, he can come good![/quote]I don''t believe that is at all true. The general view here when he signed was that it was a good acquisition. Most posters were optimistic. Many thought we had got a real bargain. A few were mildly sceptical or just didn''t know enough to judge, but I can''t remember anyone attacking the deal.From all I have read the posters who now are criticising van Wolfswinkel were initially supportive or agnostic but have now decided, based on his last two seasons, that he just isn''t very good. It is actually the opposite of "I told you so".[/quote]Agree with all of that PC.Most posters were optimistic and at the time it looked like we''d got a real bargain as Sporting were in a financial mess. Other Premier League clubs were impressed that we''d managed to secure him and our own club was so dazzled they embarked on the '' Feed the Wolf and he will Score '' advertising blitz.Of course we wanted him to be a success but it didn''t work out and I don''t think it will now. Not many would disagree that he''s a nice enough bloke and, by and large, fans have been very patient.Let AN work his miracle if he can but I suspect the manager would rather not have this to deal with.

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[quote user="hogesar"]
However, whilst LDC etc are more then entitled to their view (however wrong it may be), there is literally no evidence that RVW is the best technical striker / finisher at the club. You can big up that one goal (an average header on the back post, I think) as much as you like. And he was restricted to chances, but so was Hooper. Yet Hooper scored more, in the same system, same personnel. 
[/quote]

The views that he is the best technical striker come from quotes of players that season that they could not understand why he did not score in matches because of his superb technique in training. The fact that Snodgrass had the ball glued to his feet most of the time may have something to do with it, but there is no doubt about his skill/technique.  The one goal he scored was just a tantalising example of what he is capable of......and by any stretch of the imagination that goal was not "average".

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Why do people think Alex Neil would be overruled on this? Surely if he wants to spend that portion of his budget on RVW then that''s what will happen?

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="hogesar"]
However, whilst LDC etc are more then entitled to their view (however wrong it may be), there is literally no evidence that RVW is the best technical striker / finisher at the club. You can big up that one goal (an average header on the back post, I think) as much as you like. And he was restricted to chances, but so was Hooper. Yet Hooper scored more, in the same system, same personnel. 
[/quote]

The views that he is the best technical striker come from quotes of players that season that they could not understand why he did not score in matches because of his superb technique in training. The fact that Snodgrass had the ball glued to his feet most of the time may have something to do with it, but there is no doubt about his skill/technique.  The one goal he scored was just a tantalising example of what he is capable of......and by any stretch of the imagination that goal was not "average".

[/quote]
Grabban could have scored that goal.
Jerome could have scored that goal.
Hooper could have scored that goal.
It wasn''t as brilliant as you''re making out. Snodgrass may have looked like he had the ball glued to his feet, probably related to his close control, something I wish RvW displayed more often.
Do you have these quotes? I just don''t remember seeing them.

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[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="hogesar"]
However, whilst LDC etc are more then entitled to their view (however wrong it may be), there is literally no evidence that RVW is the best technical striker / finisher at the club. You can big up that one goal (an average header on the back post, I think) as much as you like. And he was restricted to chances, but so was Hooper. Yet Hooper scored more, in the same system, same personnel. 
[/quote]The views that he is the best technical striker come from quotes of players that season that they could not understand why he did not score in matches because of his superb technique in training. The fact that Snodgrass had the ball glued to his feet most of the time may have something to do with it, but there is no doubt about his skill/technique.  The one goal he scored was just a tantalising example of what he is capable of......and by any stretch of the imagination that goal was not "average". [/quote]
Grabban could have scored that goal.
Jerome could have scored that goal.
Hooper could have scored that goal.
It wasn''t as brilliant as you''re making out. Snodgrass may have looked like he had the ball glued to his feet, probably related to his close control, something I wish RvW displayed more often.
Do you have these quotes? I just don''t remember seeing them.
[/quote]

He had one chance that game - one goal.   Grabban/Jerome/Hooper could have scored the goal - but they miss as many as they score. The technique was actually superb. I was right in line with Whittaker''s cross/shot and it was spinning visciously and veering away from the goal, yet RVW controlled it expertly and clinically with his head. 

The quotes I remember were in filmed interviews with the players.

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[quote user="The Great Wall Of Tettey"]Either way he had an undeniable good record until he signed for us. If he set the league alight, take bony for example, we''d all be laughing at how we have a 25 million striker.

Can sit there and blame whoever you like but ultimately it Was 100% worth the risk when we did get him. Our 20 goal scorer last season only managed a couple all of the previous season...[/quote]Just for the record... I looked at the types of goals that Bony scored and noticed that he created a lot of great chances for himself and said that Norwich should try to sign him from Vitesse Arnhem.See here: http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/3209830/ShowPost.aspxI looked at the type of goals that RvW scored and noticed that he was heavily reliant upon others creating clear chances for him so I didn''t think that Norwich shouldn''t sign him.

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Hogesar is so desperate to criticise RVW - he will even criticise when he scores. Man you are an idiot - you can''t even appreciate that scored for us against Cambridge. People like you don''t support our players - you want to criticise when they do something good.

I agree with LDC - RVW has ability to score goals and create goals as was demonstrated by his pass to set up Toffolo to score against Cambridge.

RVW is not a bad player - that idiot who called him useless - is useless himself - he could never play football at any level.

RVW stats from wikipedia

and www.worldfootball.net & uk.soccerway.com

(All assists are from his league games at the different clubs he has been at)

As I mentioned above these stats I found show that in previous seasons he has contributed with assists at each club he has been - which proves he can create goals.

Vitesse

2007-08 -

2008-09 - 8 goals - 1 assist (league)

Utrecht

2009-10 - 16 goals - 3 assists (league)

2010-11 - 23 goals - 4 assists (league)

Sporting Lisbon

2011-12 - 25 goals

(unable to find out number of assists)

2012-13 - 20 goals

(unable to find number of assists)

Norwich City

2013-14 - 1 goal - 1 assist

Saint Etienne

2014-15 - 9 goals - 4 assists

(5 league goals - 4 league assists)

Career Total - 102 goals & 13 assists

Also he probably got a few assists for Sporting Lisbon - I just unable to find out from the websites I looked. So he has probably more than 13 assists - counting the ones he may have got for Sporting Lisbon.

I think RVW will prove some of his haters wrong on this message board and have a great season with us. Some some Norwich fans on here (not all) are so small minded - they forget that he played for other clubs before he came to us. Just because he had one bad season doesn''t mean he is a bad player. RVW does have a history of doing well at other clubs he has been at.

Even last season I think he did well - he scored 9 goals in all competitions for Saint Etienne and got 4 assists all of which came in the league. He only scored 9 goals last season - 3 less goals than Hooper & Grabban who both scored 12 goals.

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Spot on Eddie - isn''t going to happen mate. This is a manager whom is trusted and that the board want to keep!.

@Purple, I think you''re missing the point CD Mullins is trying to make re ''I told you so agendas'' - he''s not talking about people who''ve had a negative view of RvW from the day of signing (99% of us were all excited I think!) - he''s referencing the more ''critical'' or ''extreme'' posters who have since slagged Ricky off over the course of the last 18 months and thus don''t want to look stupid if he does indeed turn it around this coming season. Therefore by getting Ricky offloaded now, there will be no chance of the lad proving them wrong. Sounds silly I know, but some people do appear to take their own footballing views very very seriously and RvW having an excellent season would give a handful of the slightly more strongly opinionated posters some serious egg on face!.

FWIW, it sounds like he played pretty well again last night so the early indication to me is that AN''s style of play and also man management skills are maybe, just maybe, what we need to see our club record signing come good - and only a fool would write off the Alex Neil effect.

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If RVW does leave then it will be interesting to see where he goes and how he does. Using raw stats mixed with non-specific indicators to try and prove a point without regard to confounding factors is fraught with danger. I wouldn''t rely on it to bet against RVW being a success elsewhere.Rather than basing an argument on footballing ability and relevant external factors, you get a series of seemingly logical statements: "They can''t be any good because...they never got picked, so and so wasn''t interested in buying them, they played for a relegated side, their fans thought they were rubbish..." etc, etc.Politics is full of debate similar to the above. To many it seems like sense is being talked, but it''s usually just a load of false logic and tealeaf reading dressed up as fact. It''s designed to emotionally sway rather than set out to be objective.

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