Back four for Crystal Palace match?

[KoromaCrab 0]

Toffolo should be our right back and I feel he''ll eventually play more games than Whittaker

A left back is needed and we''ll most likely buy Alonso for this role.

We''ll also have Brady but he will be a left winger to come on for Johnson in most games.

CB''s will be Martin and Bassong with another needed for backup.

[Move Klose 303]

Toffolo right back. No he won''t be.

A back up to Martin and Bassong are you having a laugh. Will sign someone to start. Don''t need players for back up. Need players to start.

[KoromaCrab 0]

I wonder how Martin will feel being benched and if he is replaced with another CB, who will be promoted to captain?

Bassong had been captain under Hughton but as many have said, perhaps that was too much of a responsibility for him.

[Move Klose 303]

We have to go out and get a top centre half. Whether that''s to play with Martin or Bassong I dunno but we have to get someone. These guys didn''t do well defensively under hughton a defensive minded coach.

I dunno which centre half but there''s plenty out there who would jump at the chance to play in the premier league.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Oh Cameron Jeroooooooome"]We have to go out and get a top centre half. Whether that''s to play with Martin or Bassong I dunno but we have to get someone. These guys didn''t do well defensively under hughton a defensive minded coach.

I dunno which centre half but there''s plenty out there who would jump at the chance to play in the premier league.[/quote]

We let in 62 goals under Hughton in the relegation season, which was not that bad compared to other clubs in the lower half of the table, even Newcastle who finished  10th had 59 goals against.   So the defence was not the reason we went down - it was an attack that couldn''t score that was the problem.  

As I said - in the absence of Olsson, Toffolo may get his chance - and if not Elliot Bennett may get the nod at right back - and  imo he can change from being a winger to a right back - he has the pace and he has the intelligence to be able to adapt.  Some players can adapt easily - and imo Bennett is one of those - like Martin and Holt who could play virtually anywhere on the pitch and do a good job.  Bennett may not have quite enough to be a regular winger in the premiership, but as a full back with he pace to be able to get forward as AN likes - he could - like Johnson last season - and Martin, who is now a fully fledged CB - find a niche that he could make his own. 

We may get in extra defenders, but if not, we still have enough to at least get by - and who knows, maybe do much better than some think -  Toffolo and/or E.Bennett may take their chance, if they get it and we could find ourselves with a defensive force that has real strength in depth at no extra cost.

[Highland Canary 76]

Our defence is weak. We struggled last season. We struggled under Hughton when the modus operandi essentially was ''park the bus'' regardless of scoreline or opposition. Without significant strengthening at both ends of the pitch we won''t be competitive with Bournemouth or Watford let alone any of the other teams.

[smooth 114]

Gosh there is a real split in this

For me a centre half and right back are needed as started, in fact I would even say another centre half may be needed. Left back we will need cover and that is why Brady is not needed. Olsson is our starter.

But def another 1 possibly 2 starting centre halves.

[CanaryOne 0]

[quote user="Highland Canary"]Our defence is weak. We struggled last season. We struggled under Hughton when the modus operandi essentially was ''park the bus'' regardless of scoreline or opposition. Without significant strengthening at both ends of the pitch we won''t be competitive with Bournemouth or Watford let alone any of the other teams.[/quote]Agree with that , midfield we are ok but at the back and upfront we are weak beyond words . Even Ruddy could turn out to be a liability if hes in the same sort of form as last season . Dean Ashton has said today he hopes City up their search for a striker , Jerome,Grabban,Hooper and Wolf there''s not much there to worry top flight defences . Two weeks to sort it out , but i wouldnt hold your breath.

[Move Klose 303]

I can''t believe people think we can go with what we have defensively. That''s just suicidal. Was hardly convincing last season.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

Even for you LDC that is trying to spin something just a little too far.

62 goals conceded was the third worst in the league when Norwich were relegated, and would have been the third worst last season and would have been the third worst in 2012/13. Also, that is a defence that conceded 62 goals when playing with a massively defensive approach.

The back 4 (+Ruddy) cannot be blamed alone for the amount of goals conceded but from the last two seasons there is plenty of evidence that it is an area that needs drastic improvements. Going into the season with the current defensive players would be like having one armed tied behind your back in a boxing match. Even if you think the starters are sufficient the only back up centre backs at the club are the constantly injured (and questionably talented) Ryan Bennett and Michael Turner, who AN deemed not good enough pretty soon after he arrived.

Toffolo may be talented, but he has never played above League One and for part of the season at Swindon he lost his starting place due to inconsistent performances apparently. E. Bennett may be quick, but in the game versus Maccabi Haifa his positioning was all over the place and he left the man he was suppose to be marking who promptly scored.

I now you want to support the team and put a positive spin on everything - but it is better for the club to just be truthful and identify issues where they are as plain as the nose on your face. Norwich need at least one new centre back, and someone to cover Olsson whilst he is injured and push him for a first team place. Positive thinking and good attitudes aren''t going to get Norwich the points they need to survive next season.

[NCFC198 2]

Most people on here prob hadn''t even heard of Toffolo before pre season.

Now all of a sudden hes the answer in defence.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]Even for you LDC that is trying to spin something just a little too far.

62 goals conceded was the third worst in the league when Norwich were relegated, and would have been the third worst last season and would have been the third worst in 2012/13. Also, that is a defence that conceded 62 goals when playing with a massively defensive approach.

The back 4 (+Ruddy) cannot be blamed alone for the amount of goals conceded but from the last two seasons there is plenty of evidence that it is an area that needs drastic improvements. Going into the season with the current defensive players would be like having one armed tied behind your back in a boxing match. Even if you think the starters are sufficient the only back up centre backs at the club are the constantly injured (and questionably talented) Ryan Bennett and Michael Turner, who AN deemed not good enough pretty soon after he arrived.

Toffolo may be talented, but he has never played above League One and for part of the season at Swindon he lost his starting place due to inconsistent performances apparently. E. Bennett may be quick, but in the game versus Maccabi Haifa his positioning was all over the place and he left the man he was suppose to be marking who promptly scored.

I now you want to support the team and put a positive spin on everything - but it is better for the club to just be truthful and identify issues where they are as plain as the nose on your face. Norwich need at least one new centre back, and someone to cover Olsson whilst he is injured and push him for a first team place. Positive thinking and good attitudes aren''t going to get Norwich the points they need to survive next season.[/quote]

I agree with much of what you say , but 62 goals against was not vastly different from several clubs that season going up to 10th place. The bottom two were much worse.   We were similar to several clubs above us in many ways except for the lack of a few goals. 

We could do with strengthening - of course - but my premise was that if we aren''t able to sign who we want, then E.Bennett and/or Toffolo could  be a temporary soloution - and could grow into those roles.  Ifs and buts, maybe, but my belief is that players can develop and adapt and improve - if you give them the opportunity.   

So many players get labelled as this or that - look at Martin and people''s reluctance  to accept him as a centre back - but most players can adapt and change.  The ones that don''t seem to want to learn and develop are the ones that I have difficulty with - but good intelligent footballers can learn develop and change their role in the team - Holt and Chris Sutton started as full backs - there are plenty throughout football over the years that have moved.  Johnson is another who has developed beyond recognition having moved wide left. 

Also, positivity and good attitudes are 90% of the task of playing football - and in that AN is a top man at getting players to their best - so whoever is deemed good enough - so if  injury or lack of availability of transfers mean that E.Bennett plays right back, then I believe he is good enough to learn/develop in that role.  Toffolo is a different case, but he too, if given the chance as a youngster, could grow into that left back role too.    

[ZLF 274]

the 62 goal conceding back 4 was improved with the addition of Yobo so its not that difficult to improve what we have.

 

The starting back 4 does need strengthening.

[Ray 111]

NCFC198,

If most people hadn''t even heard of Toofs, then all I can say is most people don''t really follow the team with too much passion.

My main question is, why shouldn''t he be the answer, not saying he is but if the manager thinks he is good enough then let''s give him a go, a la Southampton. Every player has to make their Prem debut at some stage, no matter who they are or how good they are perceived to be. There are loads of occurrences when a club has paid big bucks for a foreign player, who has played at the top flight of their national league but cannot cut it in the Prem, at least Toff has been brought up on Prem style football.

Now thinking back to those foreign players who cost a fortune but didn''t cut it in the Prem, not sure we have ever suffered hat ignomy, ohh hang on ..........£8m........ and Toff is efectively free.

[Ginja 26]

Defence was our weakest point last season, I would be delighted to be proven wrong but Martin, Whitts, Toff, E.Bennett will not be good enough to keep us up, we need at least a new CB and RB.

[BOO 0]

We will leak goals without investment in our defence, I hope there are new quality players lines up because it''s going to be a miserable season with what we have.

As for LDC''s comments, the whole team was set up to defend under Hughton, that''s why we had no options going forward, you''re not going see that under AN and the back four next season will be under a lot more pressure than they were under Mr Boring.

[Ray 111]

Vanwink,

It could be argued that under AN''s more attacking game plan the defence will be under less pressure, insomuch we will have the ball the other end for at least some of the game, which in turn means the oppo''s midfiled is pushed back and will be less inclined to break on us leaving themselves exposed, etc.

Bottom line is, score more than the oppo and we''re happy, is this going to happen against the top 4/6, possibly but is not our results against them that will define our season, it''s how we deal with, Stoke, Swansee, West Brom, etc. If we want to improve measurably on what we''ve got anywehere on the pitch then we need to spend heavily, far more than the £20m ish we have available, so it may well be we need to get the best out of what we''ve got and AN may just be the man for that.

[Mr Angry 1,554]

We conceded 29 in 24 games under NA, with 6 clean sheets, and 19 in 22 under AN, with 8 clean sheets. A clear improvement under AN, which may simply be due to getting Seb back in the team, or may be due to better tactics, better motivating, who knows?

Past performance in the Premiership may not necessarily be a good indicator of future performance given the change in manager.

[BOO 0]

Ray

Yes, we won''t concede when we have the ball.

The problem however is that we are undoubtedly going to be more stretched at the back than we were under CH making us more vunerable and dependant on the back four.

This is going to be a big season for Tettey who could be vital protecting the back four and I hope that Mulumbu will equal him when he plays, however I am worried about our lack of pace, particularly at RB, a lack of cover at LB and a CH pairing of probably Martin and Seb which IMO is not good enough for the prem.

[Jacko 0]

Otsemobor, Doherty, Omozusi, Grounds

[Ray 111]

Hi Vanwink,

I get the point you are making re Tettey and Mulumbu, not sure I agree we will be more stretched at the back than we were under CH though. Personally I think EB could come very good at RB and certainly has sufficient pace and to quote Paddy Davitt from today''s EDP "AN is convinced EB can challenge for a Prem League start in a new full back role with NCFC."

Also in Toff we may have the new Luke Shaw and that''ll do for me, and he made his debut aged 17, and Toff has pace.

Re CB, personally I think the pairing of SB and RM are being underestimated by some and to improve would you look to replace SB the more aerial of the two, or RM the more positional of the two? If you''re looking to get someone who is better positionally than RM with greater aerial abilility, or someone who is better aerially than SB with greater positional ability I think the fee and wages would be quite high and possibly beyond where we want to be.

When we went down we did in fact concede quite a few goals but only 12 (I think) more than Liverpool, however we only scored 28. I agree much of this may have been down to CH''s style of play and potentially the players we had available and their mindset. Under AN it appears the mindset is quite different and I think (hope) we now have players who will be far more creative.

I guess only time will tell?

[BOO 0]

Ray, the whole set up under CH was defensively constructed, midfield players had a defensive mindset and assisted the defence in a way that I doubt ( hope) we will not see under AN, at the expense of more progressive attacking play. This inevitably helped cover defensive frailties in the back four.

Toffs does have great potential, buts that''s what it is at the moment and I don''t believe he has played at Championship let alone Prem level so with him it''s a massive don''t know. It''s a huge step up from League one and I wouldn''t want to see a young player lose confidence by being rushed into a first team spot.

E Bennet for me has not been the same since his injury and I don''t see him suddenly coming good a a RB.

I don''t see R Martin as a Prem Centre half, I know he has played there for Scotland but at that level he has looked a bit lost and positionally vunerable.

Seb is a top player and I think we can rely on him but he does lose concentration and at a higher level is at risk of giving penalties away.

I just don''t see that what we have is solid enough and IMO this is the area we should primarily be investing in.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

Whittikar Martin Bassong Toffolo

[Ray 111]

Vanwink,

Agree being defensively minded under CH, although there were some midfielders who didn''t perform their defensive duties that well (imo). Toffs has not played at Champs level, but Luke Shaw had only played at U21''s, at least Toffs has played League 1??

EB since his injury, I agree not the winger I thought he could blossom into, but as a wing back/RB, I think it could work.

We disagree on RM''s abilities, I have said many times on here that positioning is key and positioning often blocks a move but it is not recorded as a stat because no tackle or physical block took place. I rate his positioning, as does Strachan, etc. as you state. Will he get beaten at times, of course, that''s what attackers are paid to do and if he never got beaten, he''d more than likely be playing for Barcelona, that is if you could prise the boy out of Norwich.

Seb, a good player, OK I''ll go with that but as you say he loses concentration at times and not the quickest, so I therefore I could not describe him as a top player, but will do a job this season imo.

You could go all season without conceding and still go down if you score zero all season. So no matter how good your defence is your attackers have to be better, or at least be able to outplay the oppo''s defence, so whilst I would be happy to see some money spent on back ups/simliars in defence, I would prefer to see the majority of our limited budget go on providing/scoring goals.

Whatever happens, it''s going to be an interesting season.

Enjoy.

[Highland Canary 76]

I suspect NN''s prediction is correct. Equally, this is a ''defence'' that will see us returned to the championship at our first attempt.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

When Olssons fit that will be Scotlands 1st choice x2, Swedens 1st choice and surely Cameroon''s 1st choice if he so desired. Whether Tofollo can step up remains to be seen. We won''t know if we don''t try.

If we sign others they need to be better than we have. So be interesting to see who Lennon signs for Leicesters defence.

On...

[Lynn Canary 0]

For me, Elliot Bennett played very well against Maccabi. They were having a hard time getting past him and ended up putting most of their attacks down our left where Johnson was filling in. I''d be more than fine seeing him challenge Whittaker for a place at right back. I also think modern fall backs need to be up and down the pitch a lot and able to put a good cross in and that is one area where I think Bennett has an advantage over Whittaker.

Also for me Toffolo seems to have been the biggest revelation of pre season. Solid in every game, and although there has only really been the one game where he has had a challenge, he coped very well against Maccabi. They found it much tougher in that second half to get at us and they got much less joy up against Toffolo than against Johnson (although I know that''s not his position). I''d be happy to see him given a chance. And if it doesn''t work out, Olsson will be back soon and can always just get someone in nearer the end of the transfer window

[Move Klose 303]

Well having Scotlands 1st choice anything is hardly evidence that someone is any good.

And what you say about Bassong being cameroons best defender is not quite true.

Simply put Whittaker, e.Bennett at RB, R.Bennett, Turner, Martin, Miquel, Toffolo are either not good enough or ready for this level. Let''s take our yellow and green tinted specs off and get in the real world.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

So what is Cameroon''s best back four?

The four I named are in my opinion the best we have available forPalace. If we dont pick them then we need to sign someone better.

What''s your suggested back fourfor that game? And what colour specs can you see them through?

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]Whittikar Martin Bassong Toffolo[/quote]

Crosby, Stills, Nash, Young.[:D]