Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Redders Right Foot

I was quite hopeful for RVW tonight...

Recommended Posts

There''s not having confidence and then there''s not being good enough.

In my opinion he doesn''t have enough attributes to be an effective Premier League striker. No pace, virtually no physical presence and doesn''t look as though he''d be able to create anything for himself. He''s the sort of player you need to effectively spoon feed chances and hope he''ll get a few goals. And, on his current form you just can''t see him putting too many away.

Grabban and Jerome will be our preferred strikers this season, and Gary Hooper may provide useful if he stays. All of these offer more than Ricky at the moment. Although Lafferty is out of the picture, I feel even he''d do a better job.

Best for both club and player if he moves on, but can''t see anyone wanting to take a risk, unless on a loan or very cut price fee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"If" RVW has any chance here, then as far as I can see there is only one possible combination that "could" work, and that would be for him to be paired with/playing just behind Jerome.

  Would have liked to have seen that tried before now  during this pre-season, but Jerome''s injury has prevented that,only one more chance to see that pairing on Saturday but I would think we''d want to be playing our starting XI for Palace vs Brentford.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Wes Hooly Fan"]There''s not having confidence and then there''s not being good enough.

In my opinion he doesn''t have enough attributes to be an effective Premier League striker. No pace, virtually no physical presence and doesn''t look as though he''d be able to create anything for himself. He''s the sort of player you need to effectively spoon feed chances and hope he''ll get a few goals. And, on his current form you just can''t see him putting too many away.

Grabban and Jerome will be our preferred strikers this season, and Gary Hooper may provide useful if he stays. All of these offer more than Ricky at the moment. Although Lafferty is out of the picture, I feel even he''d do a better job.

Best for both club and player if he moves on, but can''t see anyone wanting to take a risk, unless on a loan or very cut price fee.[/quote]
Pretty much this, word for word.
I would reiterate that his movement against a West Ham XI was pretty good, it helped create the chances. However, there''s little pressure in a friendly, and he still couldn''t finish.
Whilst I don''t think he''s good enough, i''m coming round to what is probably Alex Neil''s thinking. We can''t seem to get rid of him, as things stand we''ve not signed another striker, we need to get him integrated into the squad to some extent in case we don''t pull of a transfer for a striker. I''m fairly sure he''ll be 3rd, 4th choice as things stand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="Wes Hooly Fan"]There''s not having confidence and then there''s not being good enough.

In my opinion he doesn''t have enough attributes to be an effective Premier League striker. No pace, virtually no physical presence and doesn''t look as though he''d be able to create anything for himself. He''s the sort of player you need to effectively spoon feed chances and hope he''ll get a few goals. And, on his current form you just can''t see him putting too many away.

Grabban and Jerome will be our preferred strikers this season, and Gary Hooper may provide useful if he stays. All of these offer more than Ricky at the moment. Although Lafferty is out of the picture, I feel even he''d do a better job.

Best for both club and player if he moves on, but can''t see anyone wanting to take a risk, unless on a loan or very cut price fee.[/quote]
Pretty much this, word for word.
I would reiterate that his movement against a West Ham XI was pretty good, it helped create the chances. However, there''s little pressure in a friendly, and he still couldn''t finish.
Whilst I don''t think he''s good enough, i''m coming round to what is probably Alex Neil''s thinking. We can''t seem to get rid of him, as things stand we''ve not signed another striker, we need to get him integrated into the squad to some extent in case we don''t pull of a transfer for a striker. I''m fairly sure he''ll be 3rd, 4th choice as things stand.
[/quote]

Pros would say that it is easier to score when the pressure is on.   Friendlies don''t have the same focus, for players, as competetive games. West Ham weren''t too good in front of goal either......worse, in fact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hog well put

 

I would imagine we are actively trying to offload him but bearing in mind he rejected a transfer to Sporting because he could not agree terms (money) if we cant loan him out we will be stuck with him - if he is 3rd or 4th choice then so be it, but just cant see him starting if the others are fit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That''s all very good LDC, but RvW has regularly failed to find the net in BOTH competitive and friendly games. A poor goal scoring record can be excused if a player offers something else. Unfortunately van Wolfswinkel doesn''t.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The fact that people are still willing to see if RvW "can come good" and "may be an option" is absolutely ludicrous. He had 38 games last time around. It’s just not an excuse that he was playing under CH’s system, that his confidence was knocked, that he wasn’t getting the service, that he was unlucky etc ad nauseam. There is only one fact that should be considered: He only scored once. You cannot get around that. He is one of the worst strikers in the history of the Premier League. If he had scored a few more we may well have stayed up. His ability and any rumoured clause in his contract that he had to remain first choice striker cost us top flight status.

The reason that we are saddled with him is not because he “looks sharp” in pre-season games, it’s because no other team in the top 2 leagues would want him. If you were a Derby, Hull, Middlesbrough fan and RvW was being touted as your new striker then you’d be rightly p1ssed off and would question the board’s choices and ambition. Why therefore, should we be happy that he may feature this season?

If the fans have mixed feelings I wonder what the feeling is in the dressing room knowing full well that you don’t have confidence in your striker. How many games before player start turning on him and heads drop across the field? You think Bassong is going to put up with a striker who can’t score? It happened before if you believe the rumours and caused huge rifts in the team.

I trust Alex Neil but he needs to be incredibly careful that RvW doesn’t become a noose around his neck. If he can’t be shifted he shouldn’t be in the 25.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Wes Hooly Fan"]That''s all very good LDC, but RvW has regularly failed to find the net in BOTH competitive and friendly games. A poor goal scoring record can be excused if a player offers something else. Unfortunately van Wolfswinkel doesn''t.[/quote]

 

I actually think Lakey is on to something here. He just couldn''t bring himself to say that, under Hughton, the word "pressure" was non-existent. That aside, WHF, If Alex Neil thinks RvW is in the mix, that opinion sways me  more than yours does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we can''t shift him it does explain why the manager is emphasising his worth if he knows he is going to have to include him in the squad. But is Neil the sort of manager to include a player that he doesn''t rate? We have already seen him send one potential signing home. Might be nothing to it of course and he''s left out but the positive spin is interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="hogesar"][quote user="Wes Hooly Fan"]There''s not having confidence and then there''s not being good enough.

In my opinion he doesn''t have enough attributes to be an effective Premier League striker. No pace, virtually no physical presence and doesn''t look as though he''d be able to create anything for himself. He''s the sort of player you need to effectively spoon feed chances and hope he''ll get a few goals. And, on his current form you just can''t see him putting too many away.

Grabban and Jerome will be our preferred strikers this season, and Gary Hooper may provide useful if he stays. All of these offer more than Ricky at the moment. Although Lafferty is out of the picture, I feel even he''d do a better job.

Best for both club and player if he moves on, but can''t see anyone wanting to take a risk, unless on a loan or very cut price fee.[/quote]
Pretty much this, word for word.
I would reiterate that his movement against a West Ham XI was pretty good, it helped create the chances. However, there''s little pressure in a friendly, and he still couldn''t finish.
Whilst I don''t think he''s good enough, i''m coming round to what is probably Alex Neil''s thinking. We can''t seem to get rid of him, as things stand we''ve not signed another striker, we need to get him integrated into the squad to some extent in case we don''t pull of a transfer for a striker. I''m fairly sure he''ll be 3rd, 4th choice as things stand.
[/quote]

Pros would say that it is easier to score when the pressure is on.   Friendlies don''t have the same focus, for players, as competetive games. West Ham weren''t too good in front of goal either......worse, in fact.

[/quote]
Not sure that''s entirely true. You can watch England team train, and get 20/20 penalties. Watch them competitively however...
Regardless, I wouldn''t use that as an argument for RvW. Remember, RvW in competitive games has hardly been prolific.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="hogesar"][quote user="Wes Hooly Fan"]There''s not having confidence and then there''s not being good enough.

In my opinion he doesn''t have enough attributes to be an effective Premier League striker. No pace, virtually no physical presence and doesn''t look as though he''d be able to create anything for himself. He''s the sort of player you need to effectively spoon feed chances and hope he''ll get a few goals. And, on his current form you just can''t see him putting too many away.

Grabban and Jerome will be our preferred strikers this season, and Gary Hooper may provide useful if he stays. All of these offer more than Ricky at the moment. Although Lafferty is out of the picture, I feel even he''d do a better job.

Best for both club and player if he moves on, but can''t see anyone wanting to take a risk, unless on a loan or very cut price fee.[/quote]
Pretty much this, word for word.
I would reiterate that his movement against a West Ham XI was pretty good, it helped create the chances. However, there''s little pressure in a friendly, and he still couldn''t finish.
Whilst I don''t think he''s good enough, i''m coming round to what is probably Alex Neil''s thinking. We can''t seem to get rid of him, as things stand we''ve not signed another striker, we need to get him integrated into the squad to some extent in case we don''t pull of a transfer for a striker. I''m fairly sure he''ll be 3rd, 4th choice as things stand.
[/quote]Pros would say that it is easier to score when the pressure is on.   Friendlies don''t have the same focus, for players, as competetive games. West Ham weren''t too good in front of goal either......worse, in fact.[/quote]
Not sure that''s entirely true. You can watch England team train, and get 20/20 penalties. Watch them competitively however...
Regardless, I wouldn''t use that as an argument for RvW. Remember, RvW in competitive games has hardly been prolific.
[/quote]True, however, if  the players behind him had been more able to give him the through balls or early crosses that his runs deserved, he would have had more clear cut chances on Tuesday..........and the same was true under Hughton, too.    I know he fluffed his one on one chance on Tuesday.....but if AN can keep him motivated,  he still has the ability to come good.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alex Neil has said he''s in the mix and like his movement. For those who don''t believe him - look at Lafferty, Neil hasn''t played him or said anything about him.

I''ll take Neil''s opinion over the football experts on this forum and I agree with his assessment to date

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Football is a fickle mistress and Lazarus-esque tales of redemption abound.

The catalyst to such tales is often pragmatic expediency, in this case there is nowhere else to go. Wages too high, nobody will pay any kind if price, low ebb in terms of recent performance and cold in front of goal.

Beware of absolute opinions though.

Neil cannot move him, but has no other current option than to integrate him positively. Good management - accepting the reality and making the best of it, perfection is not on offer.

Analyse also the pragmatism of the situation. he''s not going anywhere and we are paying his wages. He''s an expensive reserve, but we can cutter to afford it. An ex Dutch International, with good movement and a decent past scoring record. We lack top level pedigree forwards. One good, important goal can change everything with strikers.

That Norwich have such a player as 4th choice in the Premier League. Where did it all go wrong George?

Parma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Tilt"]The fact that people are still willing to see if RvW "can come good" and "may be an option" is absolutely ludicrous. He had 38 games last time around. It’s just not an excuse that he was playing under CH’s system, that his confidence was knocked, that he wasn’t getting the service, that he was unlucky etc ad nauseam. There is only one fact that should be considered: He only scored once. You cannot get around that. He is one of the worst strikers in the history of the Premier League.[/quote]Let''s just clarify a few points shall we?1) He didn''t have 38 games last time round, he had 25 league matches and 2 cup games = 27 games2) The things you don''t accept as ''excuses'' are the primary reasons why almost ANY striker would struggle to score outside of the handful of superstars who make things happen solo.3) Yes, he only scored once, but take a look at the following:Player A:1 in 16Player B:1 in 25Both players only scored a single goal in that premier league season, Player B is our very own RvW, player A is 16 million pounds worth of Italian International - Mario Balotelli....Now take a look at their records for the past 4 seasons:Player A:1 in 1614 in 30 (1 in 2.14 games)13 in 27 (1 in 2.07 games)13 in 23 (1 in 1.77 games)Player B:5 in 28 (1 in 5.6 games)1 in 2515 in 30 (1 in 2 games)14 in 23 (1 in 1.64 games)Very similar scoring records from 2011/12 and 2012/13 (admittedly RvW was playing in a far weaker league), but then came RvW''s horror show at the hands of Hughton in 13/14, and a fairly tepid spell in France having arrived bereft of confidence and feeling like somewhat of a failure in 14/15.Balotelli''s scoring record is pretty damn good at every single club until he went to Liverpool (much like RvW''s was until he came to us), and I doubt you''d get many people claiming that Balotelli is unable to ''come good'' on the back of a poor season, so why should RvW be treated any differently?If the manager believes he can get RvW to perform as needed when asked, why can''t we simply accept his judgment and give him a fair chance? RvW has acted like a professional throughout and doesn''t deserve a lot of the garbage that''s being chucked his way, and I''d still rather play RvW upfront than I would spend 8-10 mil on players like Mbokani...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I would act like a professional if I was being paid handsomely without performing anywhere near as well as required. That is a basic expectation of a professional footballer, not reason for praise.

When chances came RvW''s way, he missed them. You can''t blame the wingers or midfielders or the manager for that. Could he have had more chances? Of course. Would he have taken them? We don''t know but on the basis of what we have seen I would be sceptical.

Too lightweight and not clinical enough to be a PL striker. Time to move on or warm the bench.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Tilt"]The fact that people are still willing to see if RvW "can come good" and "may be an option" is absolutely ludicrous. He had 38 games last time around. It’s just not an excuse that he was playing under CH’s system, that his confidence was knocked, that he wasn’t getting the service, that he was unlucky etc ad nauseam. There is only one fact that should be considered: He only scored once. You cannot get around that. He is one of the worst strikers in the history of the Premier League.[/quote]Let''s just clarify a few points shall we?1) He didn''t have 38 games last time round, he had 25 league matches and 2 cup games = 27 games2) The things you don''t accept as ''excuses'' are the primary reasons why almost ANY striker would struggle to score outside of the handful of superstars who make things happen solo.3) Yes, he only scored once, but take a look at the following:Player A:1 in 16Player B:1 in 25Both players only scored a single goal in that premier league season, Player B is our very own RvW, player A is 16 million pounds worth of Italian International - Mario Balotelli....Now take a look at their records for the past 4 seasons:Player A:1 in 1614 in 30 (1 in 2.14 games)13 in 27 (1 in 2.07 games)13 in 23 (1 in 1.77 games)Player B:5 in 28 (1 in 5.6 games)1 in 2515 in 30 (1 in 2 games)14 in 23 (1 in 1.64 games)Very similar scoring records from 2011/12 and 2012/13 (admittedly RvW was playing in a far weaker league), but then came RvW''s horror show at the hands of Hughton in 13/14, and a fairly tepid spell in France having arrived bereft of confidence and feeling like somewhat of a failure in 14/15.Balotelli''s scoring record is pretty damn good at every single club until he went to Liverpool (much like RvW''s was until he came to us), and I doubt you''d get many people claiming that Balotelli is unable to ''come good'' on the back of a poor season, so why should RvW be treated any differently?If the manager believes he can get RvW to perform as needed when asked, why can''t we simply accept his judgment and give him a fair chance? RvW has acted like a professional throughout and doesn''t deserve a lot of the garbage that''s being chucked his way, and I''d still rather play RvW upfront than I would spend 8-10 mil on players like Mbokani...[/quote]

Accept the manager''s judgment? Agreed. I do. And the manager''s judgment is that he doesn''t want him. Hence the attempt, scuppered only by the player, to sell him back to Portugal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Then why is he playing RVW but not Lafferty? His comments suggest he sees good movement. On that basis, I agree with Neil too - all is not lost, perhaps not the player we imagined when he joined but more than capable of contributing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Cobain18"]Then why is he playing RVW but not Lafferty? His comments suggest he sees good movement. On that basis, I agree with Neil too - all is not lost, perhaps not the player we imagined when he joined but more than capable of contributing![/quote]He doesnt want either of them thats why niether of them got a training plan like the rest of the squad when they returned to training, of course RVW scuppered his move so things have changed.Notice its the same 2 posters supporting him who supported him the season before last one of those would argue black is white

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Cobain18"]Then why is he playing RVW but not Lafferty? His comments suggest he sees good movement. On that basis, I agree with Neil too - all is not lost, perhaps not the player we imagined when he joined but more than capable of contributing![/quote]

Isnt lafferty injured? Not sure what the update is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="city4eva"]Notice its the same 2 posters supporting him who supported him the season before last one of those would argue black is white[/quote]Yes, how dare some of us support a player who came in with a great attitude, worked hard, got completely mis-used and demoralised by the joke of a previous manager we had, but hasn''t got all pi$$y about it, has maintained his professionalism and is currently working hard to show what he can offer to our new manager...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="city4eva"]Notice its the same 2 posters supporting him who supported him the season before last one of those would argue black is white[/quote]Yes, how dare some of us support a player who came in with a great attitude, worked hard, got completely mis-used and demoralised by the joke of a previous manager we had, but hasn''t got all pi$$y about it, has maintained his professionalism and is currently working hard to show what he can offer to our new manager...[/quote]
Hahahaha.
Interesting. If this was Steve Morison...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
People keep saying that RvW ''missed'' his chances against West Ham. He didn''t - his shot was on target but just clipped the keeper''s leg and deflected wide. That isn''t a miss. Nor was his clever improvisation with the headerthat forced the back-pedalling keeper to make a one-handed save from underneath the bar.

I''m only guessing, but I think AN wanted a chance to work with RvW after the Sporting deal fell through. If it doesn''t work out, there may still be a chance to resurrect that deal with us supporting his wages for a year or something like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Yelloow Since 72"]People keep saying that RvW ''missed'' his chances against West Ham. He didn''t - his shot was on target but just clipped the keeper''s leg and deflected wide. That isn''t a miss. Nor was his clever improvisation with the header that forced the back-pedalling keeper to make a one-handed save from underneath the bar.

I''m only guessing, but I think AN wanted a chance to work with RvW after the Sporting deal fell through. If it doesn''t work out, there may still be a chance to resurrect that deal with us supporting his wages for a year or something like that.[/quote]
You''re quite right, in my opinion, to an extent. The first chance, was indeed on target, but it was a weak, poor effort which you''d expect a striker to take.
I don''t think anyone could claim that header as a ''miss''.
As for AN thoughts, I think it''s probably something along those lines although not as much in RvW''s favour as you''d imagine. After RvW caused the Sporting deal to collapse, and to this point we''ve not signed another striker, I think AN has realised it''s logical to integrate him into the team in case he doesn''t pull of a transfer for a new Striker.
I''d still put him 3rd / 4th choice in our current setup, where we''re only likely to play one up front, but nonetheless if we don''t get what we want in the transfer market he could make a couple appearances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Forget the price tag, forget how he played under Hughton, that''s in the past.

He may or may not find his best form again but he showed in the midweek friendly that he can contribute this season in some form - his all round play was good apart from the one miss and he did well to create the chance for himself with his movement.

Battering the guy is going to lower his confidence, he''ll start doubting everything he does - that''s not constructive for anyone!!

There''s too much focus and pressure on him.... Take your job/career - if someone was looking over your shoulder, criticising your every move and generally making you doubt yourself, you wouldn''t perform well either!! If Grabban or Hoooer had slipped over mid week, no one would have batted an eye lid, just would have put it down to slippy pitch.

The two choices: judge him on last season and on pre season match, slaughter him, lower his confidence, make him more ineffective

Support him, stop focusing on and analysing everything he does more than you do with the rest of the squad - he''s a confidence player, accept he has a part to play and get behind him when he''s playibg for Norwich!

If the above doesn''t resonate at all, I''d suggest you''ve never played football. Loss of confidence can and will completely change a players let''s not drain RVW''s confidence by booing or laughing at him,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Don''t write the old boy off yet, his movement is good and he finds space, that''s what you want from a striker.

Ok he hasn''t scored and didn''t hit the net much last season, but, he is getting into the right places and IMO will definately start hitting the back of the net.

I can understand all the doubters but for me he is still worth a shout.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...