A New Stadium at Broadland?

[chicken 0]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]chicken,The area plan states the council would provide land and money for a new stadium. The area plan also states the council will need to provide amenities such as a sports hall, community sports pitches etc.NC have the opportunity to say to the council and rugby club "We would also consider building a new stadium (on land which is to be provided by the council)".There are numerous possibilities that could be of benefit to NC not only to vastly reduce the cost of a new stadium (a lot of the cost is usually to pay for the land) but also have the general public regularly using facilities on site that could earn additional revenue for NC.It would be wise for NC to discuss it as early as possible before the best sites are taken. A good site could then be ring-fenced as an option for the future.[/quote]

Sadly the logic for this one is very poor.

The offer is quite clearly linked to the Rugby Club because it is in amongst the area of redevelopment - has the Rugby club taken up the offer?

This would also go against your previous suggestion of Broadland Business park so have you given up on that one? I say that because the council would not be finding another place to move the Rugby club to within the area set aside for redevelopment. And the same would go for NCFC.

The size of site needed would be the same as several houses etc. And a sports hall etc is more likely to be a part of a school or community centre - much like those you can find in Taverham etc.

And once more - have a look at the York stadium which you have based parts of your suggestions on. It''s an 8,000 seater. Carrow Road is currently over three times the capacity and we are talking about enlarging it to be four times the size.

All of that space highlighted on the map you have shown is for residential, hence why I am guessing you argued an industrial estate.

It really doesn''t make any financial sense to do it. How much does a brand new 30-35,000 seated stadium cost to build? A rough guess for me would be £70-100million.

The council would not make a dent on that, trust me. Neither would any number of "community" grants. If you start selling facilities to other businesses then you shrink the facilities available to the club that they currently house profit making elements in. Thus meaning they will either need to build a bigger stadium in terms of commercial space, costing more money or they will need to find new premises for said business elements again, costing more money.

And a club in profit, in the premier league, is incredibly important when it comes to FFP.

Even if you remove all of the physical problems such as transport etc - it still just isn''t the right time to do this for the club. And as the board have publicly stated - a new stadium isn''t financially viable at the moment.

And I believe them. It isn''t. And so far, you are yet to provide any evidence to say otherwise.

And as for a brand new stadium attracting players. Someone ask a Plymouth Argyle fan please.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="Webbo118"]I think they should seriously reconsider locating to either the old speedway track (it would be nearer for me) or the old greyhound stadium. Has the potential of these sites been considered?[/quote]There were two greyhound stadiums Webbo, which one did you have in mind?[/quote]

Ideally, the one at Boundary Road.

[Molly Windley 76]

Putting the whole stadium sharing proposal to one side.As I understand it the development of the Norwich Rugby ground is a joint venture between Badger Builders and the Rugby Club itself. Badger have had an application to develop the ground for housing granted by Norwich Council but must relocate the Rugby Club as part of the deal.Why the Council would want to or need get involved with grants or additional funds I do not know as its basically a deal between the Rugby club and Badger Builders.

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="Molly Windley"]Putting the whole stadium sharing proposal to one side.As I understand it the development of the Norwich Rugby ground is a joint venture between Badger Builders and the Rugby Club itself. Badger have had an application to develop the ground for housing granted by Norwich Council but must relocate the Rugby Club as part of the deal.Why the Council would want to or need get involved with grants or additional funds I do not know as its basically a deal between the Rugby club and Badger Builders.[/quote]A) The council has to provide a lot of community amenities in a good location within the Broadland growth triangle.B) Badger Builders have a controlling interest in the current Norwich Rugby Club site and have it earmarked for 200-300 houses. They would have to pay for a new site and stadium for the rugby club.C) The provision for land for a new stadium is stated in the area plan (which also makes planning permission a lot easier) but a site has yet to be specified.D) There is an opportunity for the council, developers, NRC & NC to get together to agree upon a site that would be good for a stadium as a community hub.NC would then get a new stadium at a fraction of the cost (because the council and developers would be willing to pay a contribution) plus it would be used by the local community (sports hall, community sports pitches, rugby club, education etc.).There could even be a school based at a stadium. You can achieve a greater return from leasing space for education than for office space.

[chicken 0]

Yeah, see you flopped there.

A sports hall that would be shut half of the weekend and several nights of the week.

A rugby club that could only use facilities when not being used by NCFC.

A pitch that would get churned up for a relatively small rugby club comparatively.

Are we still talking about Broadland Business Park or are you now talking about a totally different site? The site you are talking about would be smaller if it didn''t include NCFC and therefore both the builders and the council would not look to include NCFC where possible.

And it is also likely to be in or around the larger areas of development which is going to be problematic for you transportation arguments.

You are either on a wind up, or, as I am beginning to believe, you have issues with communicating effectively.

[TimDim 0]

Clearly you are mad as a hatter with very little grasp on business, or the real world. How on earth would a contribution from the council amd the developers amount to City getting a new stadium at a fraction of the cost? Have you the slightest idea of what happens at Carrow Road when there is not a game being played ? Do you really imagine that a school could be based at a football ground ? Perhaps it is time for the forum to club together and have you put away in some institution. Whether funded by the council, a school, a rugby club or a combination of all three with further contributions from the UEA pepper corn society it matters little (yesterday there was a blue moon, and another one will be a long quicker than there will any sense from you).

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="TimDim"] Do you really imagine that a school could be based at a football ground ? Perhaps it is time for the forum to club together and have you put away in some institution. [/quote]Sunderland FC have been approved to open a new free school right next to their stadium. Everton FC has a free school. Derby County FC have a free school. A secondary school is based in a stand at Doncaster Rovers stadium (whilst a new school is being built next to it).

[TIL 1010 4,722]

I just love how Norwich Rugby Club who currently exist in a building no bigger than a large detached house where the crowd is controlled by a rope around the perimeter of the pitch and have a gravel car park for about 50 cars at best are going to be provided with as our Tom describes it as land for a new ''stadium''.

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="chicken"]A rugby club that could only use facilities when not being used by NCFC.

A pitch that would get churned up for a relatively small rugby club comparatively.[/quote]Swansea City have been playing good passing football and yet share a pitch with Ospreys Rugby Club.

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="chicken"]The site you are talking about would be smaller if it didn''t include NCFC and therefore both the builders and the council would not look to include NCFC where possible.[/quote]Have a look at the depth of the Barclay Stand. You will notice the distance from the edge of the pitch to the back of the stand isn''t actually very big:http://www.rgcarter-construction.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/leisure-stadia-arenas-norwich-fc/the-barclay-stand.jpgConsider too that the council/developers will be having to allocate land for local restaurants, bars, retail etc. for local people to use. The stadium could have some of those so saving the council/developers some land.

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="TIL 1010"] ...have a gravel car park for about 50 cars at best are going to be provided [/quote]NC have sold the car park at CR that is behind the Jarrold Stand so probably own less than 50 parking spaces at CR.The site for the new rugby club stadium hasn''t yet been specified. If NC were involved from an early stage then there would be far greater opportunities for a huge amount of parking at a new stadium.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="TIL 1010"] ...have a gravel car park for about 50 cars at best are going to be provided [/quote]NC have sold the car park at CR that is behind the Jarrold Stand so probably own less than 50 parking spaces at CR.The site for the new rugby club stadium hasn''t yet been specified. If NC were involved from an early stage then there would be far greater opportunities for a huge amount of parking at a new stadium.[/quote]

Have you seen the size of the rugby club? Tiny in comparison.

Plus again, why would ncfc want to move somewhere they have to share with a non professional outfit. Also, ownership of the land would be the rugby club so would we be paying them ground rent.

Finally we have discussed the UEA, Broadland Business Park, Colney and now somewhere yet specified for the rugby club. When will you admit that any of the previous ideas were carp?

As for the council paying for anything - they don''t. The can make stipulations in the planning process about facilities etc but unless they do something like the riverside gym and pool they don''t actually pay for it themselves.

As for shops the liklihood is they''ll be convenience sized as you already have tescos and sainsbury''s in the areas.

This is becoming a farce. I almost expect you to suggest us moving to Milton Keynes next.

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="chicken"]

Have you seen the size of the rugby club? Tiny in comparison.[/quote]It wouldn''t be at the current rugby club site.

[TimDim 0]

I would give up Chicken, the poor lad clearly has some sort of learning difficulty. His whole method seems to be endless bizarre ideas of how NCFC can acquire a new ground whilst the cost can be spread around various other unconnected businesses, who will co-habit this fantasy building. If it is not creches, it is UEA student classrooms, rugby clubs, shops, restaurants and lord knows what next. All of which will also benefit from being given land for free (or the much missed peppercorn rent). That this hasn''t worked anywhere else has not occured to this poor fellow and so constantly we get these silly ideas being trotted out. Probably best to ignore him and hopefully he will eventually go away. On a ''scouting'' mission, perhaps ?

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

The spirit of can''t do (and don''t even think about it) lives on.

[TIL 1010 4,722]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]

NC have sold the car park at CR that is behind the Jarrold Stand so probably own less than 50 parking spaces at CR.


[/quote]

What a ridiculous incorrect statement which just highlights your lack of knowledge. There must be about 200 spaces at the very least.

[TIL 1010 4,722]

http://www.norwich.gov.uk/CommitteeMeetings/Planning%20applications/Document%20Library/169/REPPlanning4101302087VCAnd1302088VCNCFCArea20140306.pdf

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Gainer the Gopher"]The spirit of can''t do (and don''t even think about it) lives on.[/quote]

Wrong.  People have opinions, that''s all.  There is a reluctance to change, but where my problem with this particular  idea is that it is removing the club from where it is best situated for the city.   Not for planners, not for the club - but for the city and it''s people.  Norwich is a fantastic place and the club in recent years has become much more part of the city, with the opening up and development of the Wensum riverside.   NCFC is so much part of the fabric of what that part of Norwich has become, that to consider moving it is beyond reason.  It is not even difficult to imagine the City Stand being made bigger, stretching back into the old Carrow Rd - so there is still scope for development there.  

What TC never acknowledges is the reasons people are giving for staying at CR. It doesn''t even enter his thinking.  That is not the view of someone looking at the situation in a balanced way, but someone who is stuck in a mind set.  I''ll do it for him.Pros of a new stadium - NoneCons of a new stadium - Cost - £70 - £100mMany fans forced on to public transport or into carsRemote from the plentiful existing city retail outletsBuilding a 35,000 stadium risk to the season ticket numbers going down, as there is a  strong possibity that some or even many people won''t renew a season ticket to an out of city stadium - especially if seats are seen to be readily available - therefore risking club income.Wasting a vast amount of building ground for something that is not needed and could be better used for building houses/businesses/community projects. Pros of staying put -  Possibility to increase capacity to 30,000 plus.Keeping connection with the centre of the city - easy walking distanceYears of history and development - which is still ongoingNear the main station.Plenty of parking all around the city. All bus existing routes convenient Pubs, restaurants and shops within walking distance. Cons of staying put - None

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]NC have sold the car park at CR that is behind the Jarrold Stand so probably own less than 50 parking spaces at CR.[/quote]

What a ridiculous incorrect statement which just highlights your lack of knowledge. There must be about 200 spaces at the very least.

[/quote]Norwich City don''t actually own the main car park at the back of the Jarrold Stand. It has been sold to a housing association.

[TIL 1010 4,722]

A parcel of land was sold to Broadland Housing Association way back in 2010 but why have they not built on it as surely any planning permission would be about to run out 5 years on ?  Maybe the Club leased it back ?

[Katie Borkins 1]

There is no business case for the move. No motivation for the club to move. Without that, we can debate the benefit of building a stick anywhere but it is not going to happen.

Tom, well fished.

[Herman 9,717]

[quote user="Gainer the Gopher"]The spirit of can''t do (and don''t even think about it) lives on.[/quote]There''s a massive difference between ''can''t do'' and ''don''t need to do''. Most posters on this thread have looked at the feasibility of Tom''s ideas, admirable and persistent as they are, and realise they aren''t what''s best for the club as a whole.

[tom cavendish 0]

lake district canary,The local council are planning to "significantly restrict" general traffic in the city centre once the NDR has been opened. This is to include closing some of the car parks and increasing the number of bus-only routes etc.

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

Stuck in a mind set sounds like you, Lake. You refuse to acknowledge there could be any positives to a new stadium or any negatives to staying.

When this started, it was presented as a suggestion, something being considered. Then the attacks came so they were rebuffed. I''m not 100% sure, but I don''t think Tom has said the Broadland idea will happen and he''s all for it. He seems to be giving reasons why it could happen. I don''t recall him saying it will work, only that it very well could work. He hasn''t said this is our only hope for survival, but one that deserves serious consideration. Has he even said he himself wants it to happen? The attacks on him suggest he has, but I don''t think he has. Maybe i missed it.

[TimDim 0]

 It was not presented for consideration. As every time it is considered and the flaws are pointed out the story changes. Neither is about a new stadium either. It is about how a new stadium could be funded. Which invariably involves some farcical rigmarole about other companies, educational bodies, event organisations or simply anyone that happens to come into his head at that moment. None of which have the slightest possiblity of being feasible in any shape or form. However the mindset claim is correct. This poor fellow does have some ''form of a learning difficulty'' which stops him from seeing the wider picture, or even reality come to that. Maybe it is Apergers or mild autism. Either way it is fairly obvious to the rest of the forum. Why you cannot see it , or pretend not to does throw up another point of debate. But it could be that you will also be in denial and claim there is nothing wrong with you either. Perhaps you will claim to be Napoleon next, or even a football scout. Who knows.

[Sussexyellow 55]

[quote user="Sussexyellow"][quote user="Sussexyellow"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="tom cavendish"]It isn''t just all about you. [/quote]

The other point that nobody seems to want to address is that simply building a 35k stadium doesn''t mean that we will suddenly be entertaining 35k crowds. Anything over 30k is going to be a very rare event, especially as we cannot guarantee perpetual Premier League status. The population of the county has certainly increased and is probably getting on for double what it was 60 years ago. However you will find that a huge majority of our plus 35k crowds happened more than 50 years ago. There is no immediate demand for a stadium of this size and if people find that they can still be sure of a seat without buying a season ticket we will soon find that large numbers will find it more convenient to be more selective about which games they will attend.Any serious analysis much surely come to the conclusion that expanding Carrow Road is the only sensible option. [/quote]

Exactly Ricardo. 

We are now into the second day of sales of Stoke tickets are there are still seats available in all stands. So despite the feel good factor of promotion and Wembley there is not a desperate scramble amongst priority members to get there hands on what is a limited number of tickets.

OK we will no doubt sell out when the remaining tickets go on sale to season ticket holders or general sale. But if it is to believed that we could regularly sell another 4 or 5 thousand tickets then surely the demand for the current limited number of casual tickets would be at such a level that they sell out in a matter of minutes.

Possibly we already have a stadium that is closer to fitting our needs than some would like to believe. 

[/quote]

Another 48 hours have passed and still tickets available in all stands for the Stoke game! Still no evidence of a substantial excess of demand over supply!

[/quote]

Another 48 hours have passed, Another couple of pages in this thread. Yet there are still tickets available in all stands for the Stoke game.

Just where is there evidence of an excess of demand over supply for tickets to support a business case for either a stadium expansion or a new bigger stadium?

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

Been reading this for days now just expecting it to die a death. But much like the Quagliarella thread it just keeps going and going. Even though there is absolutely no chance of it happening. In fact I think we''ve got more chance of seeing Fabio put on the yellow and green than we have of ever watching Norwich City playing out at Broadland. Unless of course we decide to start ground sharing at Plantation Park with Norwich United!As for the OP.........

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

........try again.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]lake district canary,The local council are planning to "significantly restrict" general traffic in the city centre once the NDR has been opened. This is to include closing some of the car parks and increasing the number of bus-only routes etc.[/quote]

They can restrict traffic in the centre - they''ve been doing that for years - it''s an ongoing process, but if they make it too hard for people to park near the centre (near the centre, not in the centre) then the city will suffer.   Imo there will always be parking near enough the centre to allow people to shop there. Cut the city centre car parking a little if they must, but to reduce car parking too much would be ludicrous.

As for CR, parking is not something that I have ever found a problem, either when I lived in Norwich or when I visit now.  It just isn''t an issue.  Yes it involves walking, but actually, walking is good for you.   (unless you are disabled, in which case, provision is made).  

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="Gainer the Gopher"]Stuck in a mind set sounds like you, Lake. You refuse to acknowledge there could be any positives to a new stadium or any negatives to staying.

When this started, it was presented as a suggestion, something being considered. Then the attacks came so they were rebuffed. I''m not 100% sure, but I don''t think Tom has said the Broadland idea will happen and he''s all for it. He seems to be giving reasons why it could happen. I don''t recall him saying it will work, only that it very well could work. He hasn''t said this is our only hope for survival, but one that deserves serious consideration. Has he even said he himself wants it to happen? The attacks on him suggest he has, but I don''t think he has. Maybe i missed it.[/quote]You are right!I was against the NDR as it is going to lead to many thousands of new homes leading to worse traffic congestion in the city centre, and the council will then deter cars from going into the city centre.My concerns for NC staying at CR in the long-term are :A) NC doesn''t have much land remaining to develop so the potential of the club is becoming limited. That would put the club at a disadvantage under the financial fair play rules and make the club less attractive to future investors.B) The cost of increasing the capacity.C) Congestion and parking problems putting people off from going to matches and hiring the facilities.D) There isn''t much at the stadium for the local community on non-match days.However, now that the NDR (& Growth Triangle) have been given the go-ahead (less than a couple of months ago) there are numerous opportunities that could be of great benefit to NC.NC now have the opportunity to start with a blank piece of paper to come up with something really fantastic for their long-term future. It could be as simple as ''X capacity stadium that could easily be expanded in the future, lots of parking, good transport links, some pitches etc. for the community department to use'' etc.NC would be foolish to rule it out without even discussing all of the possibilities in detail with the council, UEA (and other education), Aviva, other sports clubs etc.