A New Stadium at Broadland?

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="Molly Windley"]I dont think that you have thought through all the issues that would ensue with having bus stops directly outside a football stadium. Ask yourself why supporters coaches do not drop off and pick up directly outside CR or any other stadium.[/quote]Lots of stadiums have coach parking available in their car parks. For bus services here is an example of a bus stop outside of a stadium:https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.715676,-1.209313,3a,75y,63.12h,84.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0A_IKCRYbWCaFyRnoIiqKg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[93vintage 16]

You''ve got bus stops running close to many London stadiums - West Ham, Spurs, Chelsea, Brentford. I suppose in Norwich people are used to the roads closing on a match day (and many bus services shutting down after 6:30pm), but in London the buses run as normal.On non-match days the stadium isn''t very accessible despite being on the inner ring road. Apart from the stadium itself, there''s not much around and it''s only dedicated fans who venture up there. Hypothetically, if there was more going on around the stadium (like at Riverside) then a small bus interchange opposite or round the back would be good.At the moment it''s cut off and better caters for car users. But a bus stop outside would be handy for those buying tickets, people with disabilities etc.

[tom cavendish 0]

Barbe,There are plans for a new £325m power station to be built close to CR Stadium and one of the major investors is the UEA.Read here:http://www.edp24.co.uk/property/norwich_gets_its_first_glimpse_of_proposed_325m_energy_plant_1_4065356Yet it seems that some fans are very quick to dismiss the possibility of a partnership with the UEA etc. to help fund the cost of a bigger stadium.It might even be worth NC asking about the possibility of putting a new stadium on that site rather than a power station (that is going to cause pollution). There is also a proposal to build a new bridge to that site.

[ricardo 7,349]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]Barbe,There are plans for a new £325m power station to be built close to CR Stadium and one of the major investors is the UEA.Read here:http://www.edp24.co.uk/property/norwich_gets_its_first_glimpse_of_proposed_325m_energy_plant_1_4065356Yet it seems that some fans are very quick to dismiss the possibility of a partnership with the UEA etc. to help fund the cost of a bigger stadium.It might even be worth NC asking about the possibility of putting a new stadium on that site rather than a power station (that is going to cause pollution). There is also a proposal to build a new bridge to that site.[/quote]Don''t be silly Tom, the Deal Ground where the new wood chip (green energy) power plant is to be situated is on the other side of the river and far less accessible than CR. The power plant is going to be situated right on the edge of a new housing area so I doubt that there are any anticipated pollution problems. Most of the fuel is expected to be delivered by rail.If I was asked to pick the least likely site for a new stadium it would be the Deal Ground. The only possible access to this area is via the County Hall roundabout.

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]ricardo,

Yes a new City stand would likely need to be filled very near to capacity just to break-even because the cost of building it would be so enormous.

That is precisely a reason why the club should do long-term deals with partners to help pay for it or a new stadium. One that will also provide opportunities for the club to earn additional money to help pay for a better team.

[/quote]

 

 

Tom, I''m sure there must be more in your thought process than what you have summarized here because the above two statements appear, on their face, to be conradictory. You first state the stadium would need to be filled to near capacity ( a considerable risk at 35 K ) just to break even. Then in the second paragraph you speak of how it will help to earn additional money to help pay for a better team. ??

 

I know I won''t win many Norwich friends with this statement but, with all due respect, your suggestion of why we need partners to help pay for a new stadium sounds a little socialistic in its outlook, i.e. it''s not a sound business approach for Norwich City alone so let''s get others involved so the risk/pain is shared.

[chicken 0]

I wouldn''t bother trying to reason with him anymore. He never answers any questions directly, ignores things like bus stops within 100yards of the ground and when it comes to the economics of things never, ever responds.It''s just better for all, at this point, to stop bothering at all and leave this to be one person''s attention seeking thread that it has come to be.Much like the fact he is NOT a scout for Norwich City FC and never has been.

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="ricardo"]If I was asked to pick the least likely site for a new stadium it would be the Deal Ground. The only possible access to this area is via the County Hall roundabout.[/quote]Which is why they want a new bridge to the site...

[tom cavendish 0]

YankeeCanary,I was replying to ricardo who rightly said that NC claimed a new City stand would need to be filled near to capacity to break even.The best way to pay for a bigger stadium is to involve other partners to help pay for it. If the club does that then it could mean money for the club to spend on the team.

[ricardo 7,349]

[quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="ricardo"]If I was asked to pick the least likely site for a new stadium it would be the Deal Ground. The only possible access to this area is via the County Hall roundabout.[/quote]Which is why they want a new bridge to the site...[/quote]Yes, a pedestrian bridge for the residents of the houses to be built on the Deal ground. There is no way a stadium is going to be built on this site.

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]YankeeCanary,

I was replying to ricardo who rightly said that NC claimed a new City stand would need to be filled near to capacity to break even.

The best way to pay for a bigger stadium is to involve other partners to help pay for it. If the club does that then it could mean money for the club to spend on the team.
[/quote]

 

I understood your point, Tom, but it is either a sound business decision or it is not, regardless of the number of parties involved. Surely you understand that. For example, sending a young person to university can be a significant expense for a parent. If the student is absolutely unwilling or unable to handling the university curriculum then it makes no sense for the parent to spend the money. If other parties decide to share in the parent''s cost it does not change the basis of the best decision being not to spend the money.

[SeniorCanary 0]

It''s not being built on the deal ground but on the site of the old power station...

I think the developers are after government funding because of that reason.

In the Edp link...you can see a new river excess on the pic..to a propsed marina where the deal ground is.

As i work for colmans we usually get to hear of any proposals

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="CarrowCanary"]It''s not being built on the deal ground but on the site of the old power station...

I think the developers are after government funding because of that reason.

In the Edp link...you can see a new river excess on the pic..to a propsed marina where the deal ground is.

As i work for colmans we usually get to hear of any proposals[/quote]The people behind the plans for a new Power Station very close to CR stadium would like a new bridge to be built for lorries to deliver 200,000+ tonnes of straw pellets per year... else consider going around CR...They already admit that the proposed power station would add some air pollution over Norwich.NC might want to consider blocking the plans, taking the site or moving elsewhere.

[tom cavendish 0]

York City are to move into a new stadium and they will be paying for a long lease.

"York City Council has invested £8m in the stadium, with the rest coming from grants and revenue from commercial developments."

"York City FC chairman Jason McGill said the Football Stadia Improvement Fund (FSIF) supported the club''s £2m contribution."

"The club previously said refurbishing the Bootham Crescent ground was not financially viable."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-30574521Rather than looking to spend a fortune increasing the capacity of CR, plus the stadium car park has been sold etc. wouldn''t it be a good idea to at least explore the possibilities of building a new stadium?

[chicken 0]

Back to square one Tom and the answer is that the club has and the answer is no.

Bigger more economically sound and intelligent people than you have looked into it and they decided that the most viable option would be to bring Carrow Road up to 35,000 seats. A new stadium is not the way to go.

This has been said to you many times and you flatly ignore it. I am beggining to suspect you may be a little problem processing this.

[Tumbleweed 106]

Indeed chicken. We don''t need a new stadium. We need a few (and I believe just 3K-5K or so) more seats at Carrow Road. So it''s all a bit pointless.

[lake district canary 4,531]

Admiring your persistence with this Tom - and there is a case for considering a new stadium in some of the ways you describe - but the fundamental thing you can''t change - and one of the things that makes NCFC what it is - is where it is now.  It is perfect where it is and it is part of the city, it''s heritage and it''s culture.  You move from CR to some peripheral new business oark or the UEA and you will lose a lot of that.   The only real reasons to move would be so we could build a bigger capacity stadium and to have ease of access.  

The stadium at present holds around 27,000.   We could probably fill a 30,0000 stadium, but even 35,000 would probably mean empty seats most weeks so the immediate solution would be to find a way of adding 3,000 seats to CR.   The City Stand can extend backwards - using pillars and retaining the use of the road underneath and this would appear to be the way forwards to me - plus finding a solution to hotel corner. 

The ease of access issue has been addressed on here too and really, whereas you may make it easier for some to get to a new stadium, the reality is that those many people that walk to the stadium now, will have to find some different mode of transport - so in effect more people will have to use cars/buses, making more traffic on the roads.

Clubs that build new stadiums are sometimes motivated by people who want to leave their mark on the club - Ricardo described it well as a "vanity" project - or in other words an ego trip.  When that is the major impetus for change, it rarely goes well and as it stands, the reasons for leaving the club where it is far outweigh any reasons for moving it.    Norwich is a fantastic place - moving the club away from the centre would be removing some of the life of the city and depositing it on to a faceless business park on the outskirts.  What you gain in ease of access and possible increased capacity, would be lost in the lack of warmth and character that the present position has.  I know that warmth and character are not easily measurable, but they should not be underestimated because at the end of the day, supporting a football club is about people and the community, not just counting bums on seats.  The club belongs to the fans and even though the custodians of the club hold the purse strings and make the decisions, they should always remember and be reminded of that.    So should people that are pushing for change for their own reasons. 

Planners love planning - but planning is like kit design and web design - quite often, if they are not kept under a firm hand, they get it horribly wrong.  Bottom line is - if it ain''t wrong, there''s no need to fix it - and in the case of CR, it is far from broke. Quite the opposite in fact.  

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="lake district canary"]Admiring your persistence with this Tom - and there is a case for considering a new stadium in some of the ways you describe - but the fundamental thing you can''t change - and one of the things that makes NCFC what it is - is where it is now.  It is perfect where it is and it is part of the city, it''s heritage and it''s culture.  You move from CR to some peripheral new business oark or the UEA and you will lose a lot of that.   The only real reasons to move would be so we could build a bigger capacity stadium and to have ease of access.  

The stadium at present holds around 27,000.   We could probably fill a 30,0000 stadium, but even 35,000 would probably mean empty seats most weeks so the immediate solution would be to find a way of adding 3,000 seats to CR.   The City Stand can extend backwards - using pillars and retaining the use of the road underneath and this would appear to be the way forwards to me - plus finding a solution to hotel corner. 

The ease of access issue has been addressed on here too and really, whereas you may make it easier for some to get to a new stadium, the reality is that those many people that walk to the stadium now, will have to find some different mode of transport - so in effect more people will have to use cars/buses, making more traffic on the roads.

Clubs that build new stadiums are sometimes motivated by people who want to leave their mark on the club - Ricardo described it well as a "vanity" project - or in other words an ego trip.  When that is the major impetus for change, it rarely goes well and as it stands, the reasons for leaving the club where it is far outweigh any reasons for moving it.    Norwich is a fantastic place - moving the club away from the centre would be removing some of the life of the city and depositing it on to a faceless business park on the outskirts.  What you gain in ease of access and possible increased capacity, would be lost in the lack of warmth and character that the present position has.  I know that warmth and character are not easily measurable, but they should not be underestimated because at the end of the day, supporting a football club is about people and the community, not just counting bums on seats.  The club belongs to the fans and even though the custodians of the club hold the purse strings and make the decisions, they should always remember and be reminded of that.    So should people that are pushing for change for their own reasons. 

Planners love planning - but planning is like kit design and web design - quite often, if they are not kept under a firm hand, they get it horribly wrong.  Bottom line is - if it ain''t wrong, there''s no need to fix it - and in the case of CR, it is far from broke. Quite the opposite in fact.  [/quote]? and ?

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"] The City Stand can extend backwards  - plus finding a solution to hotel corner.  [/quote]? and ?[/quote]

Not quite sure what you mean.  I know these would not be easy and it would take a lot of money and willpower to do it, but they are solutions to increasing capacity at CR and vastly preferable to moving out of the centre ofthe city.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"] The City Stand can extend backwards  - plus finding a solution to hotel corner.  [/quote]? and ?[/quote]

Not quite sure what you mean.  I know these would not be easy and it would take a lot of money and willpower to do it, but they are solutions to increasing capacity at CR and vastly preferable to moving out of the centre ofthe city.

[/quote]Firstly, I wasn''t sure whether you are suggesting that the City Stand can be extended backwards by building a second tier while the lower tier remains in place? I ask because Bowkett has indicated that is not feasible, and that the current stand would have to be knocked down and the project started from scratch. Secondly, there is no obvious solution (or at least not one that is obvious to me) to the hotel problem. What might a solution be?

[Tumbleweed 106]

Re Hotel. Buy it (can''t believe as a self standing business it is worth megabucks). Knock it down. Add 1500 seats like Community Stand. How much can a corner infill cost? No people displacement. Only wasted cost is the cost of acquiring the hotel and that is insignificant in the scheme of the PL money. Isn''t it that simple? Then we''ll be at 28,500 and getting closer......

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"] The City Stand can extend backwards  - plus finding a solution to hotel corner.  [/quote]? and ?[/quote]Not quite sure what you mean.  I know these would not be easy and it would take a lot of money and willpower to do it, but they are solutions to increasing capacity at CR and vastly preferable to moving out of the centre ofthe city. [/quote]Firstly, I wasn''t sure whether you are suggesting that the City Stand can be extended backwards by building a second tier while the lower tier remains in place? I ask because Bowkett has indicated that is not feasible, and that the current stand would have to be knocked down and the project started from scratch. Secondly, there is no obvious solution (or at least not one that is obvious to me) to the hotel problem. What might a solution be?[/quote]

My thoughts were that a relatively simple extension backwards, up to roughly the level of the other stands, would add a thousand or so seats to the city stand - and the building of such should be feasible without too much disruption to the rest of the stadium.  A new tier would obviously be more difficult.  

The area in front of the hotel is imo crying out to be sorted and the complications that there are may be a hindrance, but the space is there - it just needs someone with the perseverance and desire to do something with it. 

[chicken 0]

Also to save people clicking the link. The York stadium is projected to cost £35million for 8,000 seats.

Says it all. I think we''d be looking at at the very very least double the cost. In that example York don''t own the ground either. Things that our board have stated time and time again that they do not want to do. All of a sudden they would have to be leasing space for all of the businesses that are part of the club at Carrow Road as well.

I don''t know why anyone is giving credit to Tom for putting forward a series of poor ideas that the club has already researched in depth and come to the conclusion it just isnt viable at this time.

There really is no point looking into how they would expand carrow road because that has been established by the club too.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"] The City Stand can extend backwards  - plus finding a solution to hotel corner.  [/quote]? and ?[/quote]Not quite sure what you mean.  I know these would not be easy and it would take a lot of money and willpower to do it, but they are solutions to increasing capacity at CR and vastly preferable to moving out of the centre ofthe city. [/quote]Firstly, I wasn''t sure whether you are suggesting that the City Stand can be extended backwards by building a second tier while the lower tier remains in place? I ask because Bowkett has indicated that is not feasible, and that the current stand would have to be knocked down and the project started from scratch. Secondly, there is no obvious solution (or at least not one that is obvious to me) to the hotel problem. What might a solution be?[/quote]

My thoughts were that a relatively simple extension backwards, up to roughly the level of the other stands, would add a thousand or so seats to the city stand - and the building of such should be feasible without too much disruption to the rest of the stadium.  A new tier would obviously be more difficult.  

The area in front of the hotel is imo crying out to be sorted and the complications that there are may be a hindrance, but the space is there - it just needs someone with the perseverance and desire to do something with it. 

[/quote]I am not trying to be critical but as I understand it, No and No. As far as the City Stand it concerned what you make sound like a simple procedure (I actually doubt it would be that) would not provide anything like enough seats to push capacity even just to 32,000 or 33,000. And it would have to be the City Stand that provided the bulk of the new seats, even if  it was possible (which I doubt) to knock down the hotel. Corner infills are apparently much more expensive per seat than straight-line stands and that area would not provide more than 1,500 or perhaps 2,000 extra seats anyway.

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]Re Hotel. Buy it (can''t believe as a self standing business it is worth megabucks). Knock it down. Add 1500 seats like Community Stand. How much can a corner infill cost? No people displacement. Only wasted cost is the cost of acquiring the hotel and that is insignificant in the scheme of the PL money. Isn''t it that simple? Then we''ll be at 28,500 and getting closer......[/quote]

 

Wouldn''t the segregation of the away supporters reduce the number of seats that would go in that corner?

 

 

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="chicken"]they decided that the most viable option would be to bring Carrow Road up to 35,000 seats.[/quote]A few years ago the club claimed there was demand to expand the stadium to 35k but that it was NOT viable in the short-term because the priority is to spend money to establish the club in the Premier League. Only then would they consider going ahead with it. I completely agree with that.Since making that statement a few years ago some major local developments have been given the go-ahead such as the Broadland growth triangle, more businesses moving there, the Postwick Hub, the NDR.That presents NC with some fantastic opportunities to achieve a much better stadium (and other opportunities) than if at CR.It would be foolhardy to not even investigate the possibilities.There is also the old Utilities Site very close to CR that could be used for a power station. It would be worth the club registering an interest. To clear debts Norwich City considered a deal to sell the lease for CR to a finance company and lease it back. Rightly, the club decided not to do that. The club retains the option of selling CR and moving out.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"] The City Stand can extend backwards  - plus finding a solution to hotel corner.  [/quote]? and ?[/quote]Not quite sure what you mean.  I know these would not be easy and it would take a lot of money and willpower to do it, but they are solutions to increasing capacity at CR and vastly preferable to moving out of the centre ofthe city. [/quote]Firstly, I wasn''t sure whether you are suggesting that the City Stand can be extended backwards by building a second tier while the lower tier remains in place? I ask because Bowkett has indicated that is not feasible, and that the current stand would have to be knocked down and the project started from scratch. Secondly, there is no obvious solution (or at least not one that is obvious to me) to the hotel problem. What might a solution be?[/quote]

My thoughts were that a relatively simple extension backwards, up to roughly the level of the other stands, would add a thousand or so seats to the city stand - and the building of such should be feasible without too much disruption to the rest of the stadium.  A new tier would obviously be more difficult.  

The area in front of the hotel is imo crying out to be sorted and the complications that there are may be a hindrance, but the space is there - it just needs someone with the perseverance and desire to do something with it. 

[/quote]I am not trying to be critical but as I understand it, No and No. As far as the City Stand it concerned what you make sound like a simple procedure (I actually doubt it would be that) would not provide anything like enough seats to push capacity even just to 32,000 or 33,000. And it would have to be the City Stand that provided the bulk of the new seats, even if  it was possible (which I doubt) to knock down the hotel. Corner infills are apparently much more expensive per seat than straight-line stands and that area would not provide more than 1,500 or perhaps 2,000 extra seats anyway.[/quote]

I think there are around 200 seats in a row in the city stand, so if that is right, just adding ten rows of seats to the City stand would add in the region of 2000, 15 rows around 3000 seats.   If the hotel corner could be addressed too, anything from 1000 to 1500 seats could possibly be put in.   It would push the capacity to from 27,000 to over 30,000.   To me that would be enough.  Anything more would require a complete new stand and massive disruption, not to mention expense.   Any improvents/extensions would be expensive too, but less disruptive and ultimately would improve the ampitheatre effect with the same height stands all round the stadium - and no gaps anywhere.

[lake district canary 4,531]

This picture indicates the difference in height between the city stand and the other stands.  Extending back and up would make sense in terms of comsistency with the rest of the stadium.  

[The ghost of Michael Theoklitos 0]

This thread makes me yearn for the next ''scouting thoughts'' thread.

[Dave 0]

I can see the potential for a new stadium - Carrow Road is right in the heart of Norwich and the sale of land would give us a good price, alongside that over time land around CR has been sold making some future developments moredifficult, however not impossible at this time.

 

On the downside moving to the outskirts could have problems in itself - at the moment there are plenty of places for fans to go eat and drink- but out of town these may be limited, also transport links could cause issues.

Carrow road in itself is fine, there is potnetial for expansion and its got a lot of history to it. If we were to move the chances are we would move to a copy cat bowl like stadium that would be the same as others but with yellow seats and suddenly we would be playing at a sponsored stadium that would change its name every few years.

[TIL 1010 4,722]

York City as someone has rightly pointed out is for an 8,000 seater stadium and dear old Tom earlier in this thread put a link to an example of how buses can pick up and drop off right outside the ground and that turned out to be Oxford who have a 3 sided ground with a very small capacity. Hardly like for like examples when we are on about a new stadium for 35,000.

Jesus I cannot believe I have just kept this thread at the top of the page after seeing it slide down for over 24 hours before our resident architect,town planner,transport consultant and football scout bumped his own post up. [:''(]