Looks like we have no choice on RVW ?

[Samwam27 519]

[quote user="CanaryOne"]I would keep Wolfswinkle ahead of Grabban who i just cannot see making the step up to top level .[/quote]

Glad you said this Canary. I was just about to same the same. Grabban really needs to work on his game. Yes he''s pacey, but he''s not a quality finisher, something you need in PL. He misses far too many chances for my liking, and I completely agree I''m not sure he''ll cut the mustard in the PL (shame we got him and not Callum Wilson!)

So Grabban really needs to improve and quick, but he''s young so we''ll see

The other point keep being made is we are all assuming RVW "may" be kept as 4th striker. We have no idea if we''ll try and strengthen in this area???

[morty 0]

Would we be happy with a Premiership strikeforce of Jerome, Grabban, Hooper and Van Wofswinkel?

[Lessingham Canary 99]

Grabban reminds me of Steve Morison, i can see him stepping up, he is a AN type for sure as is Jerome, will be interesting to see if Hooper stays, either way IMO we need at least one more experienced striker, regardless of what happens with RVW.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Morty,

If better can be obtained - easier written than realised - then you can expect a striking addition.

RVW as - say - fourth choice, should not be taken as an indication that the three in front of him will be Jerome, Grabban and Hooper as now.

At least one of those will have to show more professionalism, hunger and off-field discipline than they do currently.

Parma

[morty 0]

[quote user="Parma Hams gone mouldy"]Morty,

If better can be obtained - easier written than realised - then you can expect a striking addition.

RVW as - say - fourth choice, should not be taken as an indication that the three in front of him will be Jerome, Grabban and Hooper as now.

At least one of those will have to show more professionalism, hunger and off-field discipline than they do currently.

Parma[/quote]Without looking at any of their contracts, I wouldn''t assume that any of them would want to leave though.And, to be honest, although they all have their shortcomings, there isn''t one in particular that you would point at and definitely say "Yeah, he''s definitely not good enough for the Premiership, and has to go" , apart from Ricky which, we are all concluding, that we will have no choice on.

[Daz Sparks 1,150]

I do wonder if we, as fans, get too hung up on the perceived difference in class of the Prem compared to the Champs. There is undoubtedly a better class of opposition in the Prem, but is the gap THAT huge? The top 4-5 teams have some world class players, and they will shine through, but looking at the chasing pack and the rest of the division, do they have squads packed with quality? Good players, granted, but certainly not supermen and world beaters.

I''m not saying we don''t need to strengthen, but what I am saying, we shouldn''t write off any player that AN has deemed good enough to start.

I seem to remember a certain Grant Holt was singled out and it was said by many that he would hardly score at all in the Prem.

Point is, regarding Ricky, Alex Neil may be able to get the young man playing, and we should wait and see if this happens, I am pretty sure AN won''t be long in knowing which way Ricky is going.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Daz Sparks"]I do wonder if we, as fans, get too hung up on the perceived difference in class of the Prem compared to the Champs. There is undoubtedly a better class of opposition in the Prem, but is the gap THAT huge? The top 4-5 teams have some world class players, and they will shine through, but looking at the chasing pack and the rest of the division, do they have squads packed with quality? Good players, granted, but certainly not supermen and world beaters.

I''m not saying we don''t need to strengthen, but what I am saying, we shouldn''t write off any player that AN has deemed good enough to start.

I seem to remember a certain Grant Holt was singled out and it was said by many that he would hardly score at all in the Prem.

Point is, regarding Ricky, Alex Neil may be able to get the young man playing, and we should wait and see if this happens, I am pretty sure AN won''t be long in knowing which way Ricky is going.

[/quote]The biggest concern for me is that, more often than not, we play a single striker. And neither Hooper or Ricky look suited to that role. I would like to see another striker in, in the Jerome mould.

[yoda 0]

Given that we will be playing with a loan striker RVW may as well look elsewhere because there are already 3 players ahead of him.

[yoda 0]

Lone

[Daz Sparks 1,150]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Daz Sparks"]I do wonder if we, as fans, get too hung up on the perceived difference in class of the Prem compared to the Champs. There is undoubtedly a better class of opposition in the Prem, but is the gap THAT huge? The top 4-5 teams have some world class players, and they will shine through, but looking at the chasing pack and the rest of the division, do they have squads packed with quality? Good players, granted, but certainly not supermen and world beaters.

I''m not saying we don''t need to strengthen, but what I am saying, we shouldn''t write off any player that AN has deemed good enough to start.

I seem to remember a certain Grant Holt was singled out and it was said by many that he would hardly score at all in the Prem.

Point is, regarding Ricky, Alex Neil may be able to get the young man playing, and we should wait and see if this happens, I am pretty sure AN won''t be long in knowing which way Ricky is going.

[/quote]The biggest concern for me is that, more often than not, we play a single striker. And neither Hooper or Ricky look suited to that role. I would like to see another striker in, in the Jerome mould.[/quote]

Yep, playing just the one striker does mean that whoever it is has both strength and pace, as well that old cliche, "an eye for goal".

I do see what you mean about Hooper and Ricky, but AN has yet to even meet Ricky, and surely until then we have a waiting brief, no?

[Alex Moss 2,165]

If that article with our managers Mum is anything to go by, then Alex Neil was certainly inspired by Dutch footballers at a young age, so I''m pretty confident he''ll definitely want to run the rule over Ricky.

[93vintage 16]

RVW is two years into a four year contract, presently worth say £2m and could leave for nothing in two years time. So at present we''ve lost somewhere in the region of £6m and have about a year left to try to increase his value, whether that''s via a loan or playing for us next season.In the absence of a sale we would save paying a large fraction on his wages if he''s loaned out, else we pay the full whack if he stays here. The last loan seems to merely maintained his transfer value and saved us a certain amount in running costs. He was effectively used as cheap labour, doing a useful job.If we keep we have to pay his wages and hope he performs well enough on the pitch to justify whatever we''re paying him. So it''s finely balanced whether to sell, loan or keep.I would say that another loan is likely to produce little change on our present situation and we''d end up selling at the end. We should only keep if we think he''ll outperform ie he both justifies his wages and increases his value.The scenario whereby his value increases is more likely to be with us than at another club. The question would then be "how does he successfully fit into the team?"

[can u sit down please 0]

If he gave bassong a chance why wouldn''t he want to be the man that made our record signing fire?

I expect to see RVW involved in pre season

[morty 0]

[quote user="Daz Sparks"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Daz Sparks"]I do wonder if we, as fans, get too hung up on the perceived difference in class of the Prem compared to the Champs. There is undoubtedly a better class of opposition in the Prem, but is the gap THAT huge? The top 4-5 teams have some world class players, and they will shine through, but looking at the chasing pack and the rest of the division, do they have squads packed with quality? Good players, granted, but certainly not supermen and world beaters.

I''m not saying we don''t need to strengthen, but what I am saying, we shouldn''t write off any player that AN has deemed good enough to start.

I seem to remember a certain Grant Holt was singled out and it was said by many that he would hardly score at all in the Prem.

Point is, regarding Ricky, Alex Neil may be able to get the young man playing, and we should wait and see if this happens, I am pretty sure AN won''t be long in knowing which way Ricky is going.

[/quote]The biggest concern for me is that, more often than not, we play a single striker. And neither Hooper or Ricky look suited to that role. I would like to see another striker in, in the Jerome mould.[/quote]

Yep, playing just the one striker does mean that whoever it is has both strength and pace, as well that old cliche, "an eye for goal".

I do see what you mean about Hooper and Ricky, but AN has yet to even meet Ricky, and surely until then we have a waiting brief, no?

[/quote]Oh definitely. But much the same as when we bought him, its difficult to see exactly what role Ricky will play.I''ll be more than happy if Alex Neil can find something in him.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="can u sit down please"]If he gave bassong a chance why wouldn''t he want to be the man that made our record signing fire?

I expect to see RVW involved in pre season[/quote]Bassong had a proven record in English football, including in the Premier League, and supposedly was only not playing for us because he had got on the wrong side of the then manager. None of those conditions applies to van Wolfswinkel.

[Indy 3,283]

We might start most games next season with a single striker but might finish the majority with two on the pitch.

RVW is a poaching striker who might just have a role to play from the bench.

Not sure we should write him off too soon.

[93vintage 16]

Generally speaking fans seem to be over-sceptical. When I read about the French and Portugese Leagues being League One standard, or European club competition success rates being quoted, I tend to switch off. 9 times out of 10 it''s fans talking nonsense.I think the question remains "can RVW successfully play for us?". If the answer is no then we look to sell. Only Alex Neil can provide the answer.

[lake district canary 4,531]

What was never done when he was here last was playing in a way that suited him.  The constant slowing down of play in midfield meant that any space in the penalty area was closed down by the time any cross came in. The only player that put early crosses in was Martin on his occasional foray forwards.   Snodgrass  was allowed to dominate and took on too much himself, limiting the chances of other players. If the manager had been stronger - or of the players had been more up to scratch (or a mixture of both) then the chances are he would have had a few more chances than he did.   The mix of players that season was plainly wrong, character wise - and the manager was not strong enough to deal with it - and RVW suffered partly through that, shown not least, by that penalty debacle against Villa.

RVW is technically the most clinical finisher we have - he just needs to get his head right, have the right manager and a positive team set up to show it. Judging him on his performance two years ago is pointless - he was new to English football, got injured at the wrong time, was in a team/club full of negativity - and yes he can play the Grabban style role, as Jerome has learned to do. Next season will be totally different and AN will get RVW more support

from the flanks, more men forward generally and give him the focus and

inspiration to give of his best.  All it then needs a is a goal or two

to get him up and running and he could well be a trump card for us and

costing us nothing extra.  Some people have written him off - but then

people used to write Grant Holt off at the start of every season......

Needs a clean slate, the influence of a good manager to inspire him......and the support of the fans to get behind him if selected.

[morty 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]What was never done when he was here last was playing in a way that suited him.  The constant slowing down of play in midfield meant that any space in the penalty area was closed down by the time any cross came in. The only player that put early crosses in was Martin on his occasional foray forwards.   Snodgrass  was allowed to dominate and took on too much himself, limiting the chances of other players. If the manager had been stronger - or of the players had been more up to scratch (or a mixture of both) then the chances are he would have had a few more chances than he did.   The mix of players that season was plainly wrong, character wise - and the manager was not strong enough to deal with it - and RVW suffered partly through that, shown not least, by that penalty debacle against Villa.

RVW is technically the most clinical finisher we have - he just needs to get his head right, have the right manager and a positive team set up to show it. Judging him on his performance two years ago is pointless - he was new to English football, got injured at the wrong time, was in a team/club full of negativity - and yes he can play the Grabban style role, as Jerome has learned to do. Next season will be totally different and AN will get RVW more support

from the flanks, more men forward generally and give him the focus and

inspiration to give of his best.  All it then needs a is a goal or two

to get him up and running and he could well be a trump card for us and

costing us nothing extra.  Some people have written him off - but then

people used to write Grant Holt off at the start of every season......

Needs a clean slate, the influence of a good manager to inspire him......and the support of the fans to get behind him if selected.

[/quote]You have said this a few times now, can you quantify it at all?And how do you know he can play in a "Grabban style role" exactly?

[Samwam27 519]

Equally, Morty, how do you know RVW can''t play in that role?

We''ve never seen him tried like that (especially under AN)

[morty 0]

[quote user="Samwam27"]Equally, Morty, how do you know RVW can''t play in that role?

We''ve never seen him tried like that (especially under AN)[/quote]In my opinion, he isn''t physically suited to the role, being neither physically strong, or blessed with great pace. Of course I don''t know for sure, but that is my opinion.If the player is our best finisher, then perhaps some kind of stat would back this up. Goals scored maybe?

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="lake district canary"]What was never done when he was here last was playing in a way that suited him.  The constant slowing down of play in midfield meant that any space in the penalty area was closed down by the time any cross came in. The only player that put early crosses in was Martin on his occasional foray forwards.   Snodgrass  was allowed to dominate and took on too much himself, limiting the chances of other players. If the manager had been stronger - or of the players had been more up to scratch (or a mixture of both) then the chances are he would have had a few more chances than he did.   The mix of players that season was plainly wrong, character wise - and the manager was not strong enough to deal with it - and RVW suffered partly through that, shown not least, by that penalty debacle against Villa.

RVW is technically the most clinical finisher we have - he just needs to get his head right, have the right manager and a positive team set up to show it. Judging him on his performance two years ago is pointless - he was new to English football, got injured at the wrong time, was in a team/club full of negativity - and yes he can play the Grabban style role, as Jerome has learned to do. Next season will be totally different and AN will get RVW more support

from the flanks, more men forward generally and give him the focus and

inspiration to give of his best.  All it then needs a is a goal or two

to get him up and running and he could well be a trump card for us and

costing us nothing extra.  Some people have written him off - but then

people used to write Grant Holt off at the start of every season......

Needs a clean slate, the influence of a good manager to inspire him......and the support of the fans to get behind him if selected.

[/quote]There is an element of truth in the argument that the way we played under Hughton didn''t suit van Wolfswinkel. Although I suspect Hughton played two upfront more times than Neil will next season.But how do you explain his failure with St-Etienne? Of the five major top-flight European leagues the French was always the one likely to be best suited to him.

[lake district canary 4,531]

I can''t quantify anything, apart from his prowess in finshing at Sporting, where he was fist class. It is well documented his technique is his strongest point (the only example we''ve got is the superb header against Everton - one chance, a spinning difficult ball to control, hardly any time to adjust - resulting in a superb goal).  Now we only saw that once, before the season got really under way with other underlying problems showing up. I''m not certain that he will turn it round - all I go on is the underlying ability - and the strength and ability of our manager to get the best out of any player.  RVW worked hard with little reward, got scant support from midfield, got frustrated and in a poor set up failed to make the impact required.  As for St Etienne, he has had maybe a low key season - but he has scored goals this season, so at whatever level he has had a better season than the previous one - that would have been no easy feat after the season he had with us.

It is going to be one if the most fascinating season''s ever next season, with a manager that seems to know what he is doing, will be positive - and with a stronger squad than we had last time we went up.  RVW for me is going to be part of that - and I believe he could well prove himself invaluable as part of a four man strike force. 

[HazzaJet 252]

RvW was signed by Hughton. He has a fantastic record for Sporting Lisbon but has been a failure for us so far. However, some of his career last season was injury hit and CH was a failure manager for us. Unless someone puts in an offer I think we should keep him for 1 more season. This is because he is yet to play under AN. When you look at how we changed once Neil was in charge, I do believe that there is the possibility he could make RvW''s nickname suit him

[morty 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]I can''t quantify anything, apart from his prowess in finshing at Sporting, where he was fist class. It is well documented his technique is his strongest point (the only example we''ve got is the superb header against Everton - one chance, a spinning difficult ball to control, hardly any time to adjust - resulting in a superb goal).  Now we only saw that once, before the season got really under way with other underlying problems showing up. I''m not certain that he will turn it round - all I go on is the underlying ability - and the strength and ability of our manager to get the best out of any player.  RVW worked hard with little reward, got scant support from midfield, got frustrated and in a poor set up failed to make the impact required.  As for St Etienne, he has had maybe a low key season - but he has scored goals this season, so at whatever level he has had a better season than the previous one - that would have been no easy feat after the season he had with us.

It is going to be one if the most fascinating season''s ever next season, with a manager that seems to know what he is doing, will be positive - and with a stronger squad than we had last time we went up.  RVW for me is going to be part of that - and I believe he could well prove himself invaluable as part of a four man strike force. 

[/quote]And you are aware, of course, that a fair few of his goals at Sporting, came from the penalty spot?Look, this isn''t getting at you, and no one will be more delighted than I, if Ricky comes good, but there really is very little to write home about, in his last two seasons, and quoting one goal he scored for us and somehow that making him our most clinical finisher, really is stretching the imagination a fair bit.

[93vintage 16]

[quote user="morty"]If the player is our best finisher, then perhaps some kind of stat would back this up. Goals scored maybe?[/quote]You''d look at RVW''s time at Sporting Lisbon, ie 28 in 55, and possibly his time with Utrecht where his strike rate was similar.He''s not a runner like Grabban. He''s most similar to Hooper, but lacks Hooper''s strength and ability to hold the ball up. But RVW scored a better variety in and around the penalty area, is more mobile and less lazy. He is technically better than Hooper and Grabban, and somewhat similar to Jerome in his ability to place the ball. But to write RVW off as League One standard or denigrate his achievements in Portugal is daft. His initial injury and playing for an awful hoofball manager saw him struggle to translate his prior form into PL goals.At worst the jury is out on how successful he could be in the PL. That''s not to say he''d be a roaring success, just that he''s not had a fair enough crack yet to be able to reasonably judge.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="lake district canary"]I can''t quantify anything, apart from his prowess in finshing at Sporting, where he was fist class. It is well documented his technique is his strongest point (the only example we''ve got is the superb header against Everton - one chance, a spinning difficult ball to control, hardly any time to adjust - resulting in a superb goal).  Now we only saw that once, before the season got really under way with other underlying problems showing up. I''m not certain that he will turn it round - all I go on is the underlying ability - and the strength and ability of our manager to get the best out of any player.  RVW worked hard with little reward, got scant support from midfield, got frustrated and in a poor set up failed to make the impact required.  As for St Etienne, he has had maybe a low key season - but he has scored goals this season, so at whatever level he has had a better season than the previous one - that would have been no easy feat after the season he had with us.

It is going to be one if the most fascinating season''s ever next season, with a manager that seems to know what he is doing, will be positive - and with a stronger squad than we had last time we went up.  RVW for me is going to be part of that - and I believe he could well prove himself invaluable as part of a four man strike force. 

[/quote]I had a look at a St-Etienne fans'' forum yesterday. There was a thread asking views on the overall balance-sheet for the season. The plusses and minuses. The consensus view on van Wolfswinkel (I didn''t see any disagreements) had him in the minus column.As to the second point, I would say it is generally agreed we need four strikers, and there isn''t as far as I know (posters who watch the youth team may out me right on this) any youngster good enough for the Premier League who would not then take up a place in the 25. Keeping van Wolfswinkel then either means a quartet of Jerome, Grabban, Hooper and van Wolfswinkel, which is taking a huge gamble on the latter being any good, especially since there are question-marks over the PL quality of the other three. Or it means signing someone we think is PL quality and getting rid of at least one out of Hooper, Grabban or Jerome (two of whom have scored in the PL) on the basis that RvW is better than the one we dump.I think a much more likely scenario than either of those is that we cut our losses on a player who seems not suited to English football and - just as crucially - not suited to the tactical style we are likely to favour next season. And we will fill that fourth place with as high a quality lone striker as we can afford.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="morty"]And you are aware, of course, that a fair few of his goals at Sporting, came from the penalty spot?[/quote]

Only some of his goals came from the penalty spot and he scored some terrific goals besides, but even so - being the penalty taker at a club  indicates he was considered the best striker of a ball there - and he was denied even  that at Norwich by one of Snodgrass''s many poor decisions on the pitch. Simply a write off season, that season, all round - last season he has scored a few - this coming season will be the one he has to prove himself  back to his best.  Technically, he is good - no question - Grabban and Jerome are both prone to missing the odd chances - Ricky - and we haven''t seen this because he hardly got any chances - would be more clinical - imo.

[king canary 7,578]

With RVW though it is not just the lack of goals, it was the lack of anything. His link up play was poor, he didn''t create for others, he couldn''t hold it up, all things Neil looks for in his strikers. Even with the terrible set up under Hughton Hooper managed to get a few goals and made things happen for himself and others. We paid £8.5m and got 9 shots on target all season.

I don''t see anything other than blind hope to suggest he will do better on his return as much as I''d love to be wrong.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,777]

He had an excellent goalscoring record at Sporting, but that was at a big club (for the league they''re in) so they are naturally going to do more attacking than defending, and will create a lot of chances. They can also afford to have a player who is just a goalscorer and not a huge amount else.We''re not going to be in that position next season, so will Ricky really fit in?