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Lessingham Canary

Celtic first to get safe standing !

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No designated ''seat'' when standing at Dortmund, but you are given a block. You can only enter using the correct turnstile and then your ticket is checked once you enter to make sure you are in the correct area to remove the chance of overcrowding.

Not sure what Celtic are proposing, although it is possible to have an seat designated when seated, and then an area designated when standing.

In England they are more worried that they won''t be able to identify fans who might be causing problems using seat numbers and CCTV than they are worried about crowd safety.

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This is just like the Poll Tax, the Tories are experimenting with something in Scotland before introducing it in the rest of the UK. [:)]

 

 

 

 

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Thanks Bethnal - shows how it works. Thanks Morty for posting the 4 to 7 ratio which is where I got the information from.

The precedent is there.

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Seems like there is some uncertainty about what will happen with capacity then if that ratio is to be used here .

Two things come to mind though ,,, to get a 4:7 ratio, that means the seats will need to be around half the size of current seats .

Secondly , some posted that could increase the stadium capacity at CR to 30,000. It couldn''t do that with just the lower Barclay surely ? If so , another 3000 supporters trying to get in /out of the ground ,,, toilets ,,, refreshments ,,, chaos ! Better put along the front of the Jarrold where access and facilities are far superior ?

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[quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"]Seems like there is some uncertainty about what will happen with capacity then if that ratio is to be used here .

Two things come to mind though ,,, to get a 4:7 ratio, that means the seats will need to be around half the size of current seats .

Secondly , some posted that could increase the stadium capacity at CR to 30,000. It couldn''t do that with just the lower Barclay surely ? If so , another 3000 supporters trying to get in /out of the ground ,,, toilets ,,, refreshments ,,, chaos ! Better put along the front of the Jarrold where access and facilities are far superior ?[/quote]

The problem in the Jarrold is that if the front of the stand is used, then all the row behind them will be forced to stand up because they wouldn''t be able to see over the top of them, then the row behind that and so on, ending up with everyone having to stand.   

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[quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"]Seems like there is some uncertainty about what will happen with capacity then if that ratio is to be used here .

Two things come to mind though ,,, to get a 4:7 ratio, that means the seats will need to be around half the size of current seats .

Secondly , some posted that could increase the stadium capacity at CR to 30,000. It couldn''t do that with just the lower Barclay surely ? If so , another 3000 supporters trying to get in /out of the ground ,,, toilets ,,, refreshments ,,, chaos ! Better put along the front of the Jarrold where access and facilities are far superior ?[/quote]Its a very good point about the facilities'' ability to cope with extra crowd numbers, I have to admit I hadn''t considered this.

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The seats are the same size, just you can get more people in when they are raised due to the extra space created by not having a seat there. The seats are locked in the upright position so fans can''t sit down if they want, taking up more space.

LDC is right, if Norwich were to implement rail seats they would have to be at the back to stop other''s views from being blocked.

There would also be the mentioned issues with providing adequate fire escapes and amenities. Fire escapes obviously being the most important thing.

Would be great to see rail seating in England - it has been proven safe over its use in Germany and in my opinion improves the atmosphere. For any football fanatic, you must visit the Westfalenstadion for a League game when the whole southern stand is standing - nothing else like it in Europe.

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It does appear that for something along these lines to be implemented , there would need to be not only extremely careful consideration , but also some structural changes above and beyond fitting the new seats and rails .

I am not sure I want to stand closer to some of the other supporters ! 😉

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Yes Lessingham ,, on the face of it . But as I stated , the exits , and facilities could not cope with an extra 3000 people , or anything even close to that number . In the case of an emergency it could potentially be a disaster . Which is why I posted my opinion about there needing to be fairly drastic changes other than the seats and rails , in fact it is a lot less than half the Barclay that stands for a normal game .

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The most likely scenario would be surely the standing rails, that means it would be one standing for every seat space, you would have to keep maybe the front 10 rows as seating, then behind that would be safe standing, so no pressure on H&S exits would cope as now, people could by tickets by row, or block, would also take some of the pressure of the stewards who fight a losing battle trying to get people to sit down anyway.

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[quote user="Lessingham Canary"]The most likely scenario would be surely the standing rails, that means it would be one standing for every seat space, you would have to keep maybe the front 10 rows as seating, then behind that would be safe standing, so no pressure on H&S exits would cope as now, people could by tickets by row, or block, would also take some of the pressure of the stewards who fight a losing battle trying to get people to sit down anyway.[/quote]I would have thought that the club would want it to be self financing, with the extra capacity paying off the installation of the rail seats.

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Anyone whom wants to remain in a seated part of the ground can continue to purchase tickets for that part of the ground. The 15% of the ground (whole blocks) that have the rail seats installed would most likely be in seated formation the majority of games. "Big" games (based on demand) would utilise the standing option and provide the opportunity to reach 30,000 attendees for those games. This may only be a few times per season.

Reconfiguration of toilets would be part of the considerations. As would health and safety implications.

For example, phased stewarded exiting could be used to keep the pressure off exits.

Bethnal - many thanks for the experience you bring to the thread.

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Lessingham Canary wrote the following post at 10/06/2015 3:23 PM:

The most likely scenario would be surely the standing rails, that means it would be one standing for every seat space, you would have to keep maybe the front 10 rows as seating, then behind that would be safe standing, so no pressure on H&S exits would cope as now, people could by tickets by row, or block, would also take some of the pressure of the stewards who fight a losing battle trying to get people to sit down anyway.

The stewarding of "sitting down" is an intersting one, yes the licence for the the club requires fans to be seated, but I stood up, along with everyone around me for the whole of the game at Wembley. It''s hard to understand and ultimately to enforce these rules in provincial grounds when they are not enforced at the home of footy.

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[quote user="Mr Jenkins"]Lessingham Canary wrote the following post at 10/06/2015 3:23 PM:

The most likely scenario would be surely the standing rails, that means it would be one standing for every seat space, you would have to keep maybe the front 10 rows as seating, then behind that would be safe standing, so no pressure on H&S exits would cope as now, people could by tickets by row, or block, would also take some of the pressure of the stewards who fight a losing battle trying to get people to sit down anyway.

The stewarding of "sitting down" is an intersting one, yes the licence for the the club requires fans to be seated, but I stood up, along with everyone around me for the whole of the game at Wembley. It''s hard to understand and ultimately to enforce these rules in provincial grounds when they are not enforced at the home of footy.[/quote]The thing is though, playing devil''s advocate, there are people who don''t want to stand, and people stood in front of them is ruining their game.http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/mobile/news/norwich_city_fans_urged_not_to_stand_at_carrow_road_this_season_1_3720828

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I agree with you Mr Jenkins ,, but it would seem that to achieve more capacity ,, the suggestion is almost two people standing per seat space ,, I personally see this as unworkable , purely because when "we" are standing , it''s cosy enough already ,, winter time ( with coats etc) it''s shoulder to shoulder ,,, where does the extra space come from ?

I don''t disagree with the principle of safe standing ,,, but cannot see how it can be done easily in a retrospective sense .

In a new stadium ,, simple enough IMO

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Mr Jenkins"]Lessingham Canary wrote the following post at 10/06/2015 3:23 PM:

The most likely scenario would be surely the standing rails, that means it would be one standing for every seat space, you would have to keep maybe the front 10 rows as seating, then behind that would be safe standing, so no pressure on H&S exits would cope as now, people could by tickets by row, or block, would also take some of the pressure of the stewards who fight a losing battle trying to get people to sit down anyway.

The stewarding of "sitting down" is an intersting one, yes the licence for the the club requires fans to be seated, but I stood up, along with everyone around me for the whole of the game at Wembley. It''s hard to understand and ultimately to enforce these rules in provincial grounds when they are not enforced at the home of footy.[/quote]The thing is though, playing devil''s advocate, there are people who don''t want to stand, and people stood in front of them is ruining their game.http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/mobile/news/norwich_city_fans_urged_not_to_stand_at_carrow_road_this_season_1_3720828[/quote]And quite right too. I''m all for those who want to stand being provided with standing areas but they shouldn''t be standing in seated areas. I think there are a lot of people with romantic ideas about standing on a terrace who have never had the actual experience in their lives. I stood on terraces for the first 30 years of my football supporting life and can''t honestly say that its something I miss to any real extent and at my age its not something I would now ever contemplate.I used to stand on the open terrace at the River End for many years and it was often cold wet and uncomfortable in the winter time. With a big crowd you couldn''t get out at halftime for a drink or to take a leak in case you lost your place and unless you were tall you could see bugger all from the back. The experience of somebody pissing down your leg was no fun either.Mostly it was ok because the crowds were very rarely full houses in those days and one of the things I liked to do when I stood in the South stand was to change ends with the team at halftime, usually standing about level with the penalty area. Good luck to those who want to stand as long as they don''t stand in front of me.

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Morty

"The thing is though, playing devil''s advocate, there are people who don''t want to stand, and people stood in front of them is ruining their game"

Yes that''s right, the point I was making though was that the same rules apply about sitting at Wembely as at CR, presumably, so if they are unable or unwilling to enforce the regulations there then what hope for CR.

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[quote user="Mr Jenkins"]Morty

"The thing is though, playing devil''s advocate, there are people who don''t want to stand, and people stood in front of them is ruining their game"

Yes that''s right, the point I was making though was that the same rules apply about sitting at Wembely as at CR, presumably, so if they are unable or unwilling to enforce the regulations there then what hope for CR.[/quote]I believe Norwich City were warned about it, and faced a fine if the standing persisted. And my point was mainly that they should try and enforce it though, its the rules, and there will be people who would rather make use of their seat.I stood for the entire 90 minutes at Wembley, but have talked to people who were told to sit down, I agree, there has to be some kind of consistency.

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From looking on the net there appears to be a Sports Ground Safety Authority that regulates safety issues in sports grounds.

I had thought this was done at a local level by Norfolk County Council. It appears things have changed.

If there is a national regulator then you would expect to see consistency, it surprise me even more then that there was no enforcement of ground safety rules at Wembely.

I get Ricardos point, it''s a ticky one but ultimately if the rules are there they should be enforced, for better or for worse. Theres no point however in trying to pick off the odd club here and there, it has to be done at all grounds.

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I''m not convinced that safe standing will work. But I agree there''s a demand for it and I think we will eventually see it here. When my old pins were in a better state I always stood at Carrow road. I chose Barclay block E Row W to pretty much guarantee I could stand for most of the game. Even in the infamous days of The Beast we stood most of the time. Now its impossible for me to stand I view from the Blankets where I obviously always sit.

Both times I made the choice that was right for me. The problems come when the choice is made for you through people making the wrong choice. Or are unable to get their first choice. Then you get the situation where fans are stood in front of fans who want/need to sit. This happens most at away games where even the mild .mannered fans who sit in places like the Jarrold at home prefer to stand away. The away fan who wants to sit doesn''tget to choose and I know of some fans who have stopped going away because of this.

So what happens if we have safe standing areas. Will seated areas be policed more strictly? Or will fans still expect to get away with standing in seated areas? And will the safe standing area house away fans who want to stand so that those who want to sit away from home will be able to again?

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Reading the full article on Celtic reveals that their capacity will not be increased at all. It''s purely a one to one ratio.

The lower Barclay could obviously cope with this model as the exits and bars would still be dealing with the same numbers.

Therefore for it to be useful to us we would require a new stand designed to accommodate the higher standing capacity as in the 4 to 7.2 ratio mentioned above.

Sadly the new stand that is most likely to appear first at Carrow Rd will be the main stand and that is never going to be the stand to suit such a model.

Perhaps we could be radical and knock down the river end (Kevin Reeves stand) as it is our oldest and build a purpose build stand that seats 8,000 in two tiers and the lower tier of 4.000 seats could then be increased to 7,200 for safe standing with large exits and facilities to accommodate the bigger crowds.

Initially, like a few others I had thought that safe standing would be a low cost way of increasing our capacity but it is not as simple as that as this thread has shown.

However we look at it to gain a higher capacity it is going to be costly and probably will come from a larger seated main stand. Following that there might be a consideration of a lower tier of one end or both ends to be installed as safe standing on a one to one ratio at a relatively small cost hopefully.

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There is an opportunity to build a safe standing area in the hotel corner. A corner infill going back twenty rows (which is all there is room for) would seat approximatey four hundred people. If instead it is made into a standing area, that could increase to 700.  A good place to put away fans imo (who stand anyway) and would give most of the Jarrold over to just Norwich supporters.

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[quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"]F*ck me! That''s the first thing sensible from you in a long time District .

But if I remember correctly ,, that opening is something to do with safety ,, so that would have to be addressed at the same time , but a pretty good shout .[/quote]The design of the emegency access and tunnel is built into the end of the Jarrold and could remain as an access, so there is still room for a wedge shaped corner stand leaving the safety access there.   Whether some segregation from home fans would be necessary by means of a screen of some sort is open to question - and there would be no roof, just an open stand, so it isn''t ideal - but it is something that ought to be possible.

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[quote user="kick it off"]Great news, this will snowball now and I imagine Prem clubs will be doing it within 5 years.[/quote]

dream on - there is no incentive, none, for this to be introduced. I for one would absolutely vote against it if any research was undertaken. quality of matchday experience is immeasurably greater since all seater stadiums

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[quote user="whistleblower"] quality of matchday experience is immeasurably

greater since all seater stadiums[/quote]

 

Only if you can see the game.....
 
 

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