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What is - or should be - the ambition of our club?   If we are promoted,  a sure way of maintaining our status, is to not spend the millions you get for being in the premiership, but to just have a good crack with what you''ve got.  If it means you stay up, great, if not, you have the finances to do well in the championship again. Yes, that means more of a yo yo club existence, but that in itself is exciting.   What we don''t want imo, is a prolonged spell near the bottom of the premier league, trying desperately to stay up, season after season, gradually getting demoralised - which is rather what happened last time - and as happens to other clubs too, spending millions in the process and ending up back where we started, but with less money and a demoralised club.  I''d far rather if we are promoted, to go with what we''ve got, maybe adding one or two to the squad that compliment AN''s way of doing things, than going out and spending £8m,£10m etc etc on just two or three players.  With AN, I have the feeling that he could take us quite a long way without spending too much - I think he''s that good - so, with a cavalier approach, we could stay up comfortably the first season and build from there. And even if we didn''t, we can enjoy the fact that we had a good go and know we are in a good position to try again. Aiming high without the right finances or manager/player infrastructure in place is almost bound to end in failure eventually, but aiming to play good football and exciting the fans is a healthier approach and will eventually lead to a scenario like Swansea found - comfortable survival and a team everyone liked watching (well most people).   The Premier League is the place to aim for, but not at the expense of your footballing philosophy.

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I''d both agree and disagree with parts of this.

It''s always a good idea to retain the core of a promotion winning squad and add to it to carefully with the right personalties, as Paul Lambert did so very well in 2011/12.

However then you go on to say you shouldn''t change your footballing philosophy, which again I agree with. We did this with Chris Hughton who completely changed our approach (although LDC was defending him weekly, which is rather ironic).

There''s no definitive answer, but to adopt the same style of football, including when changing managers, whilst strengthening the squad year-on-year(a la Swansea) seems the most sensible approach. We tried this but purchased the wrong players for Hughton''s rigid system.

And as for us ''desperately trying to stay up'', this is a bit wrong too. The first season under Lambert we were never realistically in danger, the second season was harder but we managed it, but of course the third season ended in disaster.

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To get to the next level up and when we''ve done that to get to the next one after that and then the next one after that ad infinitum.

 

 

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[quote user="TCCANARY"]To get to the next level up and when we''ve done that to get to the next one after that and then the next one after that ad infinitum.[/quote]What "levels" are you talking about TC? Levels of footballing achievement, as in e.g. promotion to the PL, then avoiding relegation, then consolidating in the third quartile of PL clubs, then getting into the top half, then consolidating in the second quartile, then getting into the Europa League etc. (not forgetting getting further and further year by year in the Cup competitions)?The levels that actually determine what level of footballing achievement you can realistically reach and maintain are financial. So the first question to ask is how high can Norwich City realistically aim in the Wealth League of English football clubs? And as a corollary of that, how much risk are we prepared to accept in pursuing such ambition.

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I can''t be alone in wanting us to seriously challenge for some silverware at some point. I wasn''t born the last time Norwich won something, would be great to go on a proper cup run and bring home a new trophy for the cabinet.

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The club will certainly want to be a club that can stay in the EPL for many years and without being involved in a relegation scrap each year, that stability will then give us a chance to also start taking Cup competitions seriously....and maybe pick up a trophy.

The thing is, to do this....you need to spend money, not save it or think you can survive long term with a bunch of inferior players "working hard"....sure for a couple of season it is possible, but long term you must have some quality...

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[quote user="lake district canary"]What is - or should be - the ambition of our club?   [/quote]
Sustainable growth, with contingency plans in place should relegation happen.

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[quote user="Bor Bor Bor"][quote user="lake district canary"]What is - or should be - the ambition of our club?   [/quote]
Sustainable growth, with contingency plans in place should relegation happen.
[/quote]Can''t you pad that out to several paragraphs?

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Bor Bor Bor"][quote user="lake district canary"]What is - or should be - the ambition of our club?   [/quote]
Sustainable growth, with contingency plans in place should relegation happen.
[/quote]Can''t you pad that out to several paragraphs?[/quote]
We should not over-commit IMO if we get promoted, which I think we will but may not.  If we do get promoted then I would suggest we look to improve the core of the squad and the areas where we are most vulnerable, while maintaining the services of those who got us promoted and deserve another chance at the Premier League.  
Once established in the Premier League, we should continue to reinvest money by purchasing judiciously, and only where it is clear that the new acquisition would enhance the capability of the squad overall.  Whether this means buying upgraded players or marquee signings, the one constant is that we maintain an upward trajectory in terms of player quality and therefore squad quality.  All this, of course, must be done with one eye on squad harmony and cohesiveness as I believe the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and that a well bonded team of average ability will triumph over an unstructured and unbonded team of better players - as can be seen in yesterday''s Aston Villa v Liverpool match.
All that said, we must never leave ourselves vulnerable to a Leeds or Portsmouth scenario and must ensure that we do not risk everything to end up in a dreadful mess and for that reason I would be quite clear that our acquisitions need to accept a pay cap and a pay cut were we to be relegated, or at least build in sell-on clauses into the appropriate sections of contracts.  This will safeguard our income to expenditure ratio, and provide sustainable growth with the capability to rebuild should the unthinkable happen - accepting that the longer we survive in the PL, and the better we grow, the more unthinkable relegation becomes.
So, in summary, sustainable growth, with contingency plans in place should relegation happen.
* I sort of used to write this stuff for a living, so forgive me.

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Like it or not, the phrase "Prudence with ambition" still pretty much covers it.

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Yes, though I would probably accentuate it differently i.e. "ambition with responsibility" but we are saying the same thing.
Anyway, must go to the hustings now, catch you all later.

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[quote user="Dubai Mark"]The club will certainly want to be a club that can stay in the EPL for many years and without being involved in a relegation scrap each year, that stability will then give us a chance to also start taking Cup competitions seriously....and maybe pick up a trophy.

The thing is, to do this....you need to spend money, not save it or think you can survive long term with a bunch of inferior players "working hard"....sure for a couple of season it is possible, but long term you must have some quality...[/quote]

Its a Catch 22 situation, wanting to be a top half prem club, but without having or spending the money to be that top half club. If we don''t have the necessary rexources, we are always going to be struggling in the lower half, trying to stave off relegation.  That is why suggesting that we just "enjoy" our time in the premiership may  be a better way forward.  Not doing a Blackpool and committing hari kari, but at least sticking to a footballing philosophy that ensures continuity, regardless of which division you are in.  In that way, a Swansea or Southampton style of progress may evolve eventually - but ultimately, finance is the key to prolonged success in the Prem.  Without it we are always going to be a yo yo club.  Accepting that, isn''t lack of ambition imo, its just being realistic.   Maybe we should just enjoy the prem and go for it without too much rigid idea of developing into a top half established club. The only way we are likely to do that is with a multi-many-millions type owner.......and given what has happened to some other clubs with that kind of investement, we might regret going down that route....

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Actually I''d like the revenue of the premier league, but play in the Championship - much more fun, more games, more even competition. But as that is not available as an option I guess a Swansea-like existence somewhere mid table wouldn''t be so bad?

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Assuming that you are not a shareholder may I point out that it is not your club Lakeland Canary. As a PLC the first ambition of the club  should be to pay a dividend to the shareholders. Having reached that stage the next ambition  should be to pay the maximum dividend possible after making provision for growth. Growth should include quality assets both fixed and current. Fixed would include stands, catering facilities, toilets, parking, training and chainging complexs. Current assets would include contracts with quality players, trainers and administative staff. A Club this good would be on the level of  the Arsenal at least. I suppose at this point loyalty to the club would be stretched to breaking point as there would be a takeover bid and the shareholders would sell their shares ..........hmm!

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And like all good corporates maybe a spot of diversification to spread the club''s risk. I''d suggest it gets into hydraulic shale gas extraction, also known as fracking. After all the club have a good historic track record in this field, most of Neil Doncaster''s decisions I found fracked me off no end.............

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[quote user="Yellow Wall"]The problem is that the Premiership is a very poor league for supporters of all but half a dozen clubs.[/quote]The problem is that the Premiership isn''t actually for football fans who go to games any more, its all about the TV audience!

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[quote user="Bobert"]Assuming that you are not a shareholder may I point out that it is not your club Lakeland Canary. As a PLC the first ambition of the club  should be to pay a dividend to the shareholders. Having reached that stage the next ambition  should be to pay the maximum dividend possible after making provision for growth. Growth should include quality assets both fixed and current. Fixed would include stands, catering facilities, toilets, parking, training and chainging complexs. Current assets would include contracts with quality players, trainers and administative staff. A Club this good would be on the level of  the Arsenal at least. I suppose at this point loyalty to the club would be stretched to breaking point as there would be a takeover bid and the shareholders would sell their shares ..........hmm![/quote]That is not currently applicable to us. We are a plc, but we are not listed

on a stock market and we do not pay a dividend on the ordinary shares,

which are the ones that control the ownership and effectively the fate

of the company. Only the A and B Preference shareholders are entitled,

at least in theory, to a dividend.We are not comparable to a plc

that is listed, where punters buy shares in the hope they will

increase in value in line with performance as well as paying a dividend.

People who invest in Norwich City generally do so for one of two

reasons - influence (via a large purchase) or sentimentality (by way of a

small stake).Our ambition should be to stay in business and do

so as successfully as possible, but that is not driven by the needs and

desires of the vast majority of our shareholders.

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[quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="TCCANARY"]To get to the next level up and when we''ve done that to get to the next one after that and then the next one after that ad infinitum.[/quote]

What "levels" are you talking about TC? Levels of footballing achievement, as in e.g. promotion to the PL, then avoiding relegation, then consolidating in the third quartile of PL clubs, then getting into the top half, then consolidating in the second quartile, then getting into the Europa League etc. (not forgetting getting further and further year by year in the Cup competitions)?

The levels that actually determine what level of footballing achievement you can realistically reach and maintain are financial. So the first question to ask is how high can Norwich City realistically aim in the Wealth League of English football clubs? And as a corollary of that, how much risk are we prepared to accept in pursuing such ambition. [/quote]

 

You should always look to improve, if you stand still you''re probably going backwards, so even if you do get knocked down you should get back up again you should never be kept down.

 

 

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[quote user="TCCANARY"]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="TCCANARY"]To get to the next level up and when we''ve done that to get to the next one after that and then the next one after that ad infinitum.[/quote]What "levels" are you talking about TC? Levels of footballing achievement, as in e.g. promotion to the PL, then avoiding relegation, then consolidating in the third quartile of PL clubs, then getting into the top half, then consolidating in the second quartile, then getting into the Europa League etc. (not forgetting getting further and further year by year in the Cup competitions)?The levels that actually determine what level of footballing achievement you can realistically reach and maintain are financial. So the first question to ask is how high can Norwich City realistically aim in the Wealth League of English football clubs? And as a corollary of that, how much risk are we prepared to accept in pursuing such ambition. [/quote]

 

You should always look to improve, if you stand still you''re probably going backwards, so even if you do get knocked down you should get back up again you should never be kept down.

 

 

[/quote]Indeed.

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Well there''s 92 clubs all wanting to be as high in the pyramid as possible, so it''s always going to be hard. What we need to do is use our unique positives to our advantage and see how high it takes us.

Those are the solid and loyal fan base, the area of the country (both positive as we have no nearby rivals and only 1 remotely near and negative in that we have to travel a lot as do any signings), some great facilities, one of the most promising managers in football and a relatively strong squad.

If we got to the Prem again, I think we are long overdue a good sustained period there, as Stoke are having now and as Bolton recently had. There is no reason we can''t achieve what they have achieved/ are achieving. Stoke are in no way a bigger team than us in theory in the long run yet they have slowly grown over the last few seasons and now boast some very impressive players, like the Barca duo, Peter Crouch, Begovic. These are players who have done well at the top level in spates.

Now Stoke have probably reached a relative ceiling but what''s to stop them going for europe or a cup run alongside their relatively comfortable position in the premiership? The dangerous thing for them is that they are only one minor crisis next season away from being back in the relegation battle scene. There is however nothing to stop Stoke trying to win all their games and seeing where it takes them. Look at the likes of Montpellier in France, they won the league and they are tiny compared to PSG etc. It helps when they can unearth a load of rough diamonds all in the same year like Giroud, Belhanda and co.

Yes we''re very unlikely to get close to winning the premiership whilst there are billions being thrown around but we can do a damn sight better than swanning around the championship with a bit of luck and the right decisions.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="TCCANARY"]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="TCCANARY"]To get to the next level up and when we''ve done that to get to the next one after that and then the next one after that ad infinitum.[/quote]

What "levels" are you talking about TC? Levels of footballing achievement, as in e.g. promotion to the PL, then avoiding relegation, then consolidating in the third quartile of PL clubs, then getting into the top half, then consolidating in the second quartile, then getting into the Europa League etc. (not forgetting getting further and further year by year in the Cup competitions)?

The levels that actually determine what level of footballing achievement you can realistically reach and maintain are financial. So the first question to ask is how high can Norwich City realistically aim in the Wealth League of English football clubs? And as a corollary of that, how much risk are we prepared to accept in pursuing such ambition. [/quote]

 

You should always look to improve, if you stand still you''re probably going backwards, so even if you do get knocked down you should get back up again you should never be kept down.

 

 

[/quote]

Indeed.
[/quote]

 

[:)]

 

 

 

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[quote user="Bobert"]Assuming that you are not a shareholder may I point out that it is not your club Lakeland Canary. [/quote]

Purple has already answered you on your post, but I would just like to say that  indeed it is very much my club.  I am a member of the club and therefore am very much part of it, having paid the subscription and paid in to it by buying match tickets too, for many seasons.  The club is nothing without it''s fans, buy the merchandise, go to matches,  etc etc.  It could not exist without its fans and owners and/or shareholders are not "owners" in the sense that the club is "theirs".   They are merely looking after it on behalf of  the community of Norwich the outlining area and anyone who has ever been associated with it and regard it as their club.  Its a club - and the clue is in the word "club" - and anyone who contributes in any way to it is part of it and has some ownership of it. 

Custodians of the club in the form of directors, are responsible for looking after it - for the fans, who are the real owners.  DS and co are to be massively respected for maintaining this aspect of the club becuase if they had sold out to some rich bod who would regard it as their play thing, then they would be effectively removing the fans from the equation and changing it into what other clubs have become - a shadow of their former selves, governed by glory hunters and greedy investors.  That is another reason why ambition needs to be realistic imo. 

"Ambition" is one thing - "Over Ambition" is something else - and could lead to the kind of change that could ruin the club forever, either by overstretching finances, or worse, selling out to an investor who is just in it for non community reasons.

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Bobert"]Assuming that you are not a shareholder may I point out that it is not your club Lakeland Canary. [/quote]


Purple has already answered you on your post, but I would just like to say that  indeed it is very much my club.  I am a member of the club and therefore am very much part of it, having paid the subscription and paid in to it by buying match tickets too, for many seasons.  The club is nothing without it''s fans, buy the merchandise, go to matches,  etc etc.  It could not exist without its fans and owners and/or shareholders are not "owners" in the sense that the club is "theirs".   They are merely looking after it on behalf of  the community of Norwich the outlining area and anyone who has ever been associated with it and regard it as their club.  Its a club - and the clue is in the word "club" - and anyone who contributes in any way to it is part of it and has some ownership of it. 


Custodians of the club in the form of directors, are responsible for looking after it - for the fans, who are the real owners.  DS and co are to be massively respected for maintaining this aspect of the club becuase if they had sold out to some rich bod who would regard it as their play thing, then they would be effectively removing the fans from the equation and changing it into what other clubs have become - a shadow of their former selves, governed by glory hunters and greedy investors.  That is another reason why ambition needs to be realistic imo. 


"Ambition" is one thing - "Over Ambition" is something else - and could lead to the kind of change that could ruin the club forever, either by overstretching finances, or worse, selling out to an investor who is just in it for non community reasons.


[/quote]

 

The club isn''t about shareholders, members, bricks and mortor or match day expenditure. It''s about what''s in your heart, if you are cut and you don''t bleed yellow and green you are no lesser a man but you are not the club, if you don''t die a little every time we lose then you are not the club, if you do not smite anyone who bad mouths the club then you are not the club, if you see triumph and do not think of the club then you are not the club, if you meet with disaster and do not wish it upon our foes then you are not the club, if you are not prepared to suffer the stings of a thousand wasps for the good of the club then you are not the club, if you are not willingly putting the club first then you are not the club.

Look into your heart and ask yourself this question, am I the club?

 

 

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[quote user="TCCANARY"]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Bobert"]Assuming that you are not a shareholder may I point out that it is not your club Lakeland Canary. [/quote]Purple has already answered you on your post, but I would just like to say that  indeed it is very much my club.  I am a member of the club and therefore am very much part of it, having paid the subscription and paid in to it by buying match tickets too, for many seasons.  The club is nothing without it''s fans, buy the merchandise, go to matches,  etc etc.  It could not exist without its fans and owners and/or shareholders are not "owners" in the sense that the club is "theirs".   They are merely looking after it on behalf of  the community of Norwich the outlining area and anyone who has ever been associated with it and regard it as their club.  Its a club - and the clue is in the word "club" - and anyone who contributes in any way to it is part of it and has some ownership of it.  Custodians of the club in the form of directors, are responsible for looking after it - for the fans, who are the real owners.  DS and co are to be massively respected for maintaining this aspect of the club becuase if they had sold out to some rich bod who would regard it as their play thing, then they would be effectively removing the fans from the equation and changing it into what other clubs have become - a shadow of their former selves, governed by glory hunters and greedy investors.  That is another reason why ambition needs to be realistic imo.  "Ambition" is one thing - "Over Ambition" is something else - and could lead to the kind of change that could ruin the club forever, either by overstretching finances, or worse, selling out to an investor who is just in it for non community reasons. [/quote]

 The club isn''t about shareholders, members, bricks and mortor or match day expenditure. It''s about what''s in your heart, if you are cut and you don''t bleed yellow and green you are no lesser a man but you are not the club, if you don''t die a little every time we lose then you are not the club, if you do not smite anyone who bad mouths the club then you are not the club, if you see triumph and do not think of the club then you are not the club, if you meet with disaster and do not wish it upon our foes then you are not the club, if you are not prepared to suffer the stings of a thousand wasps for the good of the club then you are not the club, if you are not willingly putting the club first then you are not the club.

Look into your heart and ask yourself this question, am I the club?[/quote]

Nice quote, but is that last question directed at me?  If it is then I don''t need to answer it because what is in my heart is for me alone to know - and no-one knows what each of us feels deep inside.  The point I made is that real ownership of the club belongs to the fans. That is the truth of it because if there were no fans, the club would soon cease to exist.   Your Tans, your Evans etc etc are just rich play boys. Let one of those types get their grips on our club and the real owners - the fans - would suffer and the friendly community club as we know it today, would soon disappear.

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="TCCANARY"]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Bobert"]Assuming that you are not a shareholder may I point out that it is not your club Lakeland Canary. [/quote]
Purple has already answered you on your post, but I would just like to say that  indeed it is very much my club.  I am a member of the club and therefore am very much part of it, having paid the subscription and paid in to it by buying match tickets too, for many seasons.  The club is nothing without it''s fans, buy the merchandise, go to matches,  etc etc.  It could not exist without its fans and owners and/or shareholders are not "owners" in the sense that the club is "theirs".   They are merely looking after it on behalf of  the community of Norwich the outlining area and anyone who has ever been associated with it and regard it as their club.  Its a club - and the clue is in the word "club" - and anyone who contributes in any way to it is part of it and has some ownership of it. 
Custodians of the club in the form of directors, are responsible for looking after it - for the fans, who are the real owners.  DS and co are to be massively respected for maintaining this aspect of the club becuase if they had sold out to some rich bod who would regard it as their play thing, then they would be effectively removing the fans from the equation and changing it into what other clubs have become - a shadow of their former selves, governed by glory hunters and greedy investors.  That is another reason why ambition needs to be realistic imo. 
"Ambition" is one thing - "Over Ambition" is something else - and could lead to the kind of change that could ruin the club forever, either by overstretching finances, or worse, selling out to an investor who is just in it for non community reasons.
[/quote]

 The club isn''t about shareholders, members, bricks and mortor or match day expenditure. It''s about what''s in your heart, if you are cut and you don''t bleed yellow and green you are no lesser a man but you are not the club, if you don''t die a little every time we lose then you are not the club, if you do not smite anyone who bad mouths the club then you are not the club, if you see triumph and do not think of the club then you are not the club, if you meet with disaster and do not wish it upon our foes then you are not the club, if you are not prepared to suffer the stings of a thousand wasps for the good of the club then you are not the club, if you are not willingly putting the club first then you are not the club.

Look into your heart and ask yourself this question, am I the club?[/quote]


Nice quote, but is that last question directed at me?  If it is then I don''t need to answer it because what is in my heart is for me alone to know - and no-one knows what each of us feels deep inside.  The point I made is that real ownership of the club belongs to the fans. That is the truth of it because if there were no fans, the club would soon cease to exist.   Your Tans, your Evans etc etc are just rich play boys. Let one of those types get their grips on our club and the real owners - the fans - would suffer and the friendly community club as we know it today, would soon disappear.



[/quote]

 

It''s only a question for you if you feel it''s a question for you.

Your point about the club not existing without the fans is an interesting one but it would be easy for a club in the Premier League to exist without fans as they''d still get enormous revenue from the TV.

 

 

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[quote user="TCCANARY"]Your point about the club not existing without the fans is an interesting one but it would be easy for a club in the Premier League to exist without fans as they''d still get enormous revenue from the TV. [/quote]What, with empty stadiums?  This is where the fallacy of the great and wonderful premier league breaks down. It is not there for the fans, who are often fleeced and with matches placed at the most inconvenbient times for them to get to.  The Premier League is a blot on the landscape for footballing tradition which has been replaced by greed - by media greed for power and influence, by rich playboy owners greedy for ego boosting etc etc.  But if fans stopped going to games, the bubble would burst, the media would lose interest and the rich playboys would disappear, returning the game to the fans.   The fans, ultimately still have the power.  If only they knew how to use it.....

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="TCCANARY"]Your point about the club not existing without the fans is an interesting one but it would be easy for a club in the Premier League to exist without fans as they''d still get enormous revenue from the TV. [/quote]

What, with empty stadiums?  This is where the fallacy of the great and wonderful premier league breaks down. It is not there for the fans, who are often fleeced and with matches placed at the most inconvenbient times for them to get to.  The Premier League is a blot on the landscape for footballing tradition which has been replaced by greed - by media greed for power and influence, by rich playboy owners greedy for ego boosting etc etc.  But if fans stopped going to games, the bubble would burst, the media would lose interest and the rich playboys would disappear, returning the game to the fans.   The fans, ultimately still have the power.  If only they knew how to use it.....


[/quote]

 

So you agree with my point. Why should the Premier League care about footballing tradition, it has a product that sells that''s all that matters.

 

 

 

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