KP

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]The answer is no Purple so maybe I had better back off slightly with my support for KP.He does seem to be led up the garden path over all this and has dispayed a certain amount of dignity, uptil now.[/quote]Thanks, Broadstairs. I have concertinaed the time frame but otherwise that analogy between Pietersen and Hoolahan is accurate. There is no way, under those circumstances, that Hoolahan would ever play for Norwich City again.Your comment about Pietersen being led astray in interesting, because I have noticed this with him before. He has talked about making mistakes through having taken bad advice.If he was some impressionable teenager, or even in his early 20s, you might forgive him for taking bad advice. But he is a supposedly mature adult. He sholdn''t need anyone to give him advice on issues that are essentially ones of morality. He should know what is right and wrong.Just to finish off, this time around the amount of support Pietersen seems to be getting, apart from the usual suspects, such as Warne and Piers Morgan, seemes to have lessened. Paul Newman in the Daily Mail, for example, who is no geriatric establishment figure, has in essence said it was the right decision.

[BroadstairsR 2,159]

[quote user="TCCANARY"]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]The answer is no Purple so maybe I had better back off slightly with my support for KP.He does seem to be led up the garden path over all this and has dispayed a certain amount of dignity, uptil now.[/quote]

 

 

Go back and read Molly Windley''s post on page 5, KP got the wrong end of the stick and you''ll also need to look up the word ''dignity'', your definition is way out.

 

 

[/quote]Oh dear! Wrong word.

KP gave up a lucrative role in the Indian league and came back to England to play for Surrey without pay. He has performed to his utmost best for Surrey, culminating with the recent 300+ innings.Clearly he had been led to believe that if he made these sacrifices and showed good form he would be in with a place in the team.He has every right to be annoyed and to that extent I feel a bit sorry for him. He''s not exactly been ranting and raving about it though.We will never know what has gone on behind the scenes though.

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"][quote user="TCCANARY"]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]The answer is no Purple so maybe I had better back off slightly with my support for KP.

He does seem to be led up the garden path over all this and has dispayed a certain amount of dignity, uptil now.
[/quote]

 

 

Go back and read Molly Windley''s post on page 5, KP got the wrong end of the stick and you''ll also need to look up the word ''dignity'', your definition is way out.

 

 

[/quote]

Oh dear! Wrong word.


KP gave up a lucrative role in the Indian league and came back to England to play for Surrey without pay. He has performed to his utmost best for Surrey, culminating with the recent 300+ innings.

Clearly he had been led to believe that if he made these sacrifices and showed good form he would be in with a place in the team.

He has every right to be annoyed and to that extent I feel a bit sorry for him. He''s not exactly been ranting and raving about it though.

We will never know what has gone on behind the scenes though.
[/quote]

KP was always contracted to go back to the IPL, his pay has gone to his charity, it wouldn''t surprise me if this is related to his tax affairs, his performances for Surrey against Glamorgan and Essex would never be described as his utmost best, the 300+ innings is rare high in a mediocre season, the 170 at Oxford doesn''t count.

And finally we have this gem "He''s not exactly been ranting and raving about it though", have you read anything he''s written recently?

 

 

[BroadstairsR 2,159]

Yes.

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]Yes.[/quote]

 

What went wrong, did your finger get tired?

 

 

[BroadstairsR 2,159]

Don''t be so silly.I had anticipated being a lone voice in my championing of KP. What I didn''t anticipate  insults and clever dick remarks for having an opinion.Pieterson hasn''t "written" too much about this except for press interviews. In today''s Times his comment was that he was angry and hurt by the decision but there was nothing he could do about it. Fairly moderate.In the same article it is revealed that the hierarchy have stated that results don''t matter in this up coming series. Unbelievable! What an incentive to the players.The Aussies will come over here with their usual ''win at all costs'' attitude.I am left wondering that if the KP dilemna had been in their court would they include the man. I''m inclined to think that they might. I seem to remeber that Shane Warne ruffled a few feathers in his time but I cannot recall him being dropped.Never mind it''s the playing that counts, not the winning.By the way, Warne and a few other cricketing worthies, including Boycott, come down on KP''s side in the same article in that Times double page spread.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

The psychology of the ''results this series'' comment is an obvious one I feel, and certainly one that would have been discussed with a lot, if not all, players before today.

Broadstairs, what would you have done if you were Alistair Cook, captain of your Country, with all this?

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="TCCANARY"]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]Simple question, it''s a or b, nothing else.Two scenarios:a)  Win the Ashes with KP in the side.b) Leave KP out a lose the Ashes.I''m firmly in the a camp.[/quote]

 

Why is it nothing else?

 

 

[/quote]

 

Because my old buddy Broady is a born again moderator who likes to sit on the throne of the Pink Un and control debate[;)]

 

I still loves ya Broady.

 

 

[BroadstairsR 2,159]

CC apparently Cook wasn''t consulted over the matter. Well he''s only the captain of the side after all. Unbelievable.The whole business has been a cock up (typical) all-round and the blazers continue to control.This business reminds me of the time Glen Hoddle left Gascoign out of his final England squad for, apparently non playing reasons.Not quite the same, but there are similarities. The whole interest shifted towards a Gazza debate when it should have focussed on the job at hand. There are similarities now whereby pages of press coverage are devoted to the KP debate rather than on the team and it''s prospects. NN. Shut the f-ck up[:)]

[The ghost of Michael Theoklitos 0]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]Don''t be so silly.I had anticipated being a lone voice in my championing of KP. What I didn''t anticipate  insults and clever dick remarks for having an opinion.Pieterson hasn''t "written" too much about this except for press interviews. In today''s Times his comment was that he was angry and hurt by the decision but there was nothing he could do about it. Fairly moderate.In the same article it is revealed that the hierarchy have stated that results don''t matter in this up coming series. Unbelievable! What an incentive to the players.The Aussies will come over here with their usual ''win at all costs'' attitude.I am left wondering that if the KP dilemna had been in their court would they include the man. I''m inclined to think that they might. I seem to remeber that Shane Warne ruffled a few feathers in his time but I cannot recall him being dropped.Never mind it''s the playing that counts, not the winning.By the way, Warne and a few other cricketing worthies, including Boycott, come down on KP''s side in the same article in that Times double page spread.[/quote]No way!If Shane Warne - or anyone else had have written the book KP did, they''d never play for Australia again. That book would have been considered treason.Shane Warne was not the most liked guy in the Australia dressing room. His relationship with Adam Gilchrist in particular was not great. But this all only came to light in the public domain until after they''d retired. Even more recently, Michael Clarke and Simon Katich came to blows at one point after a win and an argument of when to sing the team song (something very sentimental to us Aussies).The key difference is that it was never played out in the public domain. It was managed internally and never turned into a media slanging match that we see have always, and continue to see with KP.I''d say KP is at least the very least half responsible for that media slanging match.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]. NN. Shut the f-ck

up[:)][/quote]

 

Alright then[:#] But only because you asked so nice like[;)]

 

 

But in return, because everything in life has a cost, you have to go on Rays Funds this week with a Norwich match suggestion for Ray who''s making his debut. The thread will be up at 6 o''clock[:)]

 

 

[Crabbycanary3 994]

Broadstairs, my question was more about, if you had been slagged off, along with your team mates, like Cook and co were by Pietersen, how would you feel about him slotting back in the dressing room? If it was me, I would certainly feel my loyalty was with my team mates.

For the greater good and all that

[BroadstairsR 2,159]

I am inclined to think that I''d stick to my guns CC and include him on a game to game basis, but then it''s the winning that counts to me and not personal issues. We''re all big boys  after all.I haven''t read that book,  just press articles and it all seems relatively mild stuff. I prepared to be corrected on this point.There are many personal clashes in international cricket, especially in a long, stifling tour away from home. Old Bob Willis wasn''t above rubbing people up the wrong way, but now he''s considered a hero.If good old Geoff champions KP it''s good enough for me. Even Gary Linekar (a decent cricketer apparently) accuses Strauss of letting his own personal grievences get in the way of sound judgement, whilst Graeme Smith the ex Soth African captain states that "English cricket has made a laughing stock of it''s self ...... again."It''s the Aussies for F''s sake.I''m hoping upon hope that anyone who shares my views on this show up, but it doesn''t seem to be happening.

[Herman 9,754]

[quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"][quote user="BroadstairsR"]Simple question, it''s a or b, nothing else.Two scenarios:a)  Win the Ashes with KP in the side.b) Leave KP out a lose the Ashes.I''m firmly in the a camp.[/quote]England won''t win the Ashes - with or without KP.[/quote]This. I can''t see us being anywhere near being strong enough this time. And b).

[BroadstairsR 2,159]

Furthermore CC, I am inclined to think that if KP had have been included and scored a century in his first match then they would all be on that balcony clapping their hands off. In the caudrum of an international match (especially Ashes) the focus is on winning and not loving all your team mates. It''s not a cuddly wuddly thing whereby the''re all expected to like each other and, as in any work place, dissension occurs, but of prime importance is that the job is done. I don''t think we''re much adrift Herman and we have home advantage. If Anderson hits form he will cause their batsmen problems, whilst Joe Root has very much come of age in international cricket. We will miss Trott and that is where I would have put KP in.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

Broadstairs, we are on differing thought processes with this issue, so we won''t drag this out for too much longer as Saturday is getting closer, and in a Stephen Hunt stylee, I want to be ''fully focused'' without distractions!! ;)

I wouldn''t (as a Selector or Captain) want to choose someone on a game by game basis, I feel it isn''t good long term for the team

Also I certainly feel that KP hasn''t been a ''big boy'' in this, his behaviour has been immature, selfish and certainly not in the interests of the team.

I want to stuff the Aussies as much as anyone (especially as we have some Aussie rellies staying with us for a few days whilst it''s on!) but there has to be a line drawn, and Pietersen, through his own actions, has taken this to this stage, nobody else.

Equally as possible to scoring a century, is if Pietersen is out for a single figure score, or drops an easy catch (every cricketer has done it) What happens to the team dynamics, after all the shenanigans, if that happens, and after Pietersen has scarped to the next big pay cheque, because he won''t be in any England cricket team, next Summer, I''d guarantee?

At top level sport I get that risks must be taken sometimes, but with my experience of dressing rooms/captaining etc, this is a step too far, for the sake of the respect of the Captain and the teammates. You get numerous stories, spread over many top level sports, where team mates have said they may not like their captain, but they sure as hell, respect him. If Cook allows KP into the dressing room, after what he has called Cook, etc, then some of the more younger, influential players, may not, in the future, ''follow'' their Captain as they should.

This episode encompasses all sorts of things , like morals, honesty, respect, long term squad stability, etc, it''s not just about putting the best 11 cricket players on a pitch when the Aussies role into town

Pietersen , if allowed to play in the Ashes, is, in effect, being allowed to dictate to the whole dressing room, including the Captain, and effectively the ECB .

You have to have a chain of command, and after what he has done, that would be fragmented.

Anyway, OTBC!!

[Crabbycanary3 994]

Integrity and trust are also vital ingredients of a successful team

[The ghost of Michael Theoklitos 0]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]CC apparently Cook wasn''t consulted over the matter. Well he''s only the captain of the side after all. Unbelievable.The whole business has been a cock up (typical) all-round and the blazers continue to control.This business reminds me of the time Glen Hoddle left Gascoign out of his final England squad for, apparently non playing reasons.Not quite the same, but there are similarities. The whole interest shifted towards a Gazza debate when it should have focussed on the job at hand. There are similarities now whereby pages of press coverage are devoted to the KP debate rather than on the team and it''s prospects. NN. Shut the f-ck up[:)][/quote]According to today''s Mirror, that''s not correct either;http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/kevin-pietersen-england-recall-would-5693336So getting back to the hypothetical scenarios you find so fun, would you;a) Have a team with Cook, Anderson, Bell & Broad, but no KP.b) Have a team with KP, but no Cook, Anderson, Bell & Broad.That looks like a more realistic hypothetical.

[BroadstairsR 2,159]

No. Not enough fun.If true then these players should grow up and if playing for their country is treated as lightly as this then we really do have problems.I thought this debate had come to a close. There''s always one though.

[The ghost of Michael Theoklitos 0]

My mistake. I thought we were just having fun.