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Lewis Esquire

Youth Ignorance

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I''ve read a few stories this past week or so regarding the future of our young canaries, McGeehan and Toffolo to name but a few who are unsure of their futures.

It''s got me thinking - Are Norwich City missing a trick, or a pair of balls?

You look at the like of Southampton, plying their trade at the top end of the Premier League this season, yet when they have a player out injured or suspended, they have no fear in playing a ''kid'' in the first teamers place. A lot of us ''fans'' on here are of the impression that any of our youth players playing for NCFC in the championship is unheard of, yet Southampton will happily chuck a ''child'' into the mix.

Does or is Tony Andreu really offering any more than McGeehan could do? (Yes, I know he''s only just signed and i''ve made a snap judgement but it''s ''the point'' i''m trying to get across).

I like the Southampton philosophy of playing the kids, and you could argue about them being a ''different level'' but I think it comes down to chances, and we, at Norwich, don''t give our young players enough of a try before shipping them out.

We will rue the loss of McGeehan if he disappears in the summer, the same for Toffolo and eventually Morris too. Yes they need to get experience currently, but I believe these players should be forming the nucleus of our team for the future

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Overall I think we tend to get it right with the youngsters. There is the odd example but most of the youngsters we release/sell, seem to play lower league football or disappear.

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[quote user="Lewis Esquire"]I''ve read a few stories this past week or so regarding the future of our young canaries, McGeehan and Toffolo to name but a few who are unsure of their futures.

It''s got me thinking - Are Norwich City missing a trick, or a pair of balls?

You look at the like of Southampton, plying their trade at the top end of the Premier League this season, yet when they have a player out injured or suspended, they have no fear in playing a ''kid'' in the first teamers place. A lot of us ''fans'' on here are of the impression that any of our youth players playing for NCFC in the championship is unheard of, yet Southampton will happily chuck a ''child'' into the mix.

Does or is Tony Andreu really offering any more than McGeehan could do? (Yes, I know he''s only just signed and i''ve made a snap judgement but it''s ''the point'' i''m trying to get across).

I like the Southampton philosophy of playing the kids, and you could argue about them being a ''different level'' but I think it comes down to chances, and we, at Norwich, don''t give our young players enough of a try before shipping them out.

We will rue the loss of McGeehan if he disappears in the summer, the same for Toffolo and eventually Morris too. Yes they need to get experience currently, but I believe these players should be forming the nucleus of our team for the future[/quote]

Lewis all good sensible stuff, but how do you make them the nucleus of the team for the future, even bringing in one that you are not 100% sure of is a risk (Josh) I think all supporters love to see a home grown talent make it to regular 1st team football, what happened to Aki at Chelsea, he looked a class act when our youth played them, he was a millionaire before he got to 18, but to my knowledge nowhere near 1st team football. There is always an exception, ask Alan Hansen, famous for his "you will win now''t with kids" statement, I don''t think other than maybe Toffolo we have any exceptional talent in our midst, not that I am an expert talent spotter.

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A lot is going to depend on what happens over the next 3 months. If we go up into the Prem, then clearly we''ll have to invest heavily in experience. The kids will still be bit part players if at all. On the other hand, if we stay in the Champ, I''m pretty confident that AN will have a big clear out, and start afresh with a mix of  our better remaining players and several of the youngsters.I''m afraid that the likes of Toffolo, Mc Geehan and Morris will just have to wait till May to see what  future there is here for them . If they do get experience in the Champ next season , then the comparison with Southampton will be more valid. Don''t forget that the top youngsters that Saints have blooded early in recent years were mainly in Lge One and The Champ. They have started a few raw youngsters in the Prem, but not as many as people would have you believe.

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The old reserve or combination league was an ideal preparation for playing in the first team.  A regular weekly league, mirroring the main league, the chance to play teams that will have a good proportion of  senior squad players in amongst them and a team that would be able to instill practices that will be taken on when the players go into the first team.

I don''t think the so called development squad has the same attributes and is more of a young squad with only one or two older players in it.  The Reserve team as  it used to be was imo a better link to players coming up through the ranks than the present system. 

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I think Southampton are a fair example to use, currently players like Clyne, Targett, Segar and McQueen are all academy products, the question for me is, how do we get that amount into our team to create a nucleus ?

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[quote user="Lessingham Canary"]I think Southampton are a fair example to use, currently players like Clyne, Targett, Segar and McQueen are all academy products, the question for me is, how do we get that amount into our team to create a nucleus ?[/quote]I think we have covered this several times here though, Southampton have benefited from being a fair few years ahead of us in terms of their youth development. Its not that long ago that we virtually didn''t have a youth setup, and we were massively limited by catchment areas.So yes, while it might seem a fair comparison, it will probably be fairer in a few years time, when I would like to think we will really see some good quality come through our youth.

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You won''t find anyone involved in youth development who misses the old reserve league system - where young players wouldn''t get many games due to older players taking all the positions, and the ones that did were regularly booted into the air by some aging player.

The development league allows players as young as 17/18 play competitive games without the risk of an old clogger trying to break their legs.

The main reason Southampton have been able to bring through so many players is due to the fact they have more talented young players - but also there has been a guiding footballing philosophy in place at the club ever since they were in League One, which means it is easy for younger players to come into the team. They understand the style of play and what they will be expected to do.

Also, Southampton have avoided loaning out their young players as they feel keeping them in the club, with superior coaches and facilities is more beneficial than the players going to League One/Two clubs and playing hoof ball on muddy pitches.

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It does seem that as far as a lot of our most promising youngsters go it is a case of "tomorrow never comes."

I suppose it might be due to the scenario that the Club finds it''s self in at the moment. This season being "our best chance if a quick return to the PL" means that there is less chance of youngsters being blooded. It is, frankly, too risky.

If, heaven forbid, we are out of the picture by the last few games of the season, then throwing a few youngsters in to see how they play and to get experience would be sensible.

If we are still floundering in the Chumps. in two years time, then we will have no choice. Birmingham City seem to be slowly recovering their fortunes on the basis of youth, for example, as with Leeds and a few others.

Very few footballers make an instant impact at the top at a very young age, George Best and Wayne Rooney did. Shaw and Berkley are current examples. Most need easing in, and the loan system allows this.

A proper reserve team league/set-up would probably provide more openings though.

I don''t know if we get a loan fee for the likes of Toffolo etc., or even the situation regards wages but, neverthess, most of the self-funding,, such that it is, that might be accreditted to a youth system must surely come from eventually selling these players to lower league clubs rather than from the unearthing of the next super-starlet.

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Perhaps another bottom line here is that they, perhaps,  aren''t as good as we think they are?

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It''s all about risk and risk management

Cause and effect

The massive money involved causes more financial risk causes experienced players to be bought in causes fewer English plqyers brought through causes poor England squad

It''s simple but not a NCFC unique problem. Everyone has the same problem in our position

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[quote user="Lessingham Canary"]I think Southampton are a fair example to use, currently players like Clyne, Targett, Segar and McQueen are all academy products, the question for me is, how do we get that amount into our team to create a nucleus ?[/quote]

Ferguson did it with young players coming through at MU in the early 90''s.  Southampton do it, as you say.  Norwich did it in the late eighties and early nineties.   Its a matter of trust really.   Show belief in your young players, put them as soon as possible and don''t put too much pressure on them.  Southampton have a tradition of bringing players through and I suspect their crowd are positive and patient with young players, as they are used to the idea.    We seem so fired up at Norwich with showing ambition, getting promoted, playing in a certain way, etc etc.   Patience is in short supply sometimes, but given AN''s history of working with younger players, we may see more younger players brought through over time.  When they are, we may have to be patient and appreciate the bigger picture.   Success may be about results, but sometimes its about building for the future as well.

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[quote user="morty"]Perhaps another bottom line here is that they, perhaps,  aren''t as good as we think they are?[/quote]There are three ways I can think of to measure how good individuals and the overall quality of our development resources are:1) if the management team (who, despite the wealth of expertise on here, are vastly more experienced than we are and see far more of all the players) actually pick them to play,2) the level at which they are sent out on loan and how successful they are3) how ex-development players fare once they leave the cluband in the spirit of the Spanish Inquisition:4) how successful Norwich youth/reserve/whatever teams are in the competitions they play in.I added the fourth one to be fair, but apart from the FA Youth Cup success, the evidence would suggest Morty is right, the best we can do on average (within the constraints we have had to work with) is produce League 1 quality players. Chris Martin (Korey Smith?) is the only real exception.

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I do think in time AN will turn to youth more, certainly his track record suggests that, and yes we as supporters must change or manage our expectation more to accommodate these youngsters.

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We don''t have a very good record of bringing youth players into our first team at Championship or Premiership level.

Bellamy, Keith O''Neill, Kenton, Shackell, Daryl Russell, Rob Green all became first team regulars, and as far as I can remember none of them went out on loan to get experience - or if they did it wasn''t for very long. That''s not very many over the last 15 or so years. Maybe I''ve forgotten a few.

But what it does show is that the very few that really are good enough do get the chance, with us, not in league 1 or 2.

Of the current crop Josh Murphy is the only one to have even come close to earning a first team spot - which is presumably why, unlike McGehhan, Toffolo, his twin brother, Loza, and Morris he has not gone out on loan at all.

I suspect that the reason McGrandles and Thompson are seen as better options is because they had what it takes to force their way into first team football very young, even if it is at a slightly lower level.

Over the years a lot of other players have come through the academy, then gone out on loan for the experience. Some have done a reasonable job for the team that borrowed them - none that I can recall have really shone and looked genuine class acts at a lower level. If they are to make it with us they should have done that.

Most have then left on free transfers. And with one exception - Chris Martin - most of them have disappeared into the lower leagues.

Adyemi might yet be a second exception but I''m not convinced he will ever be better than a lower Championship or decent League One player. Korey Smith should be in the Championship next year but again I suspect that''s the best he''ll manage.

If we have got one thing wrong it may be that we should have tried to get nominal fees with a percentage of next sale clause for some of them.

As fans we love players coming through the ranks, trouble is we wear rose-tinted specs. Remember when people used to say get rid of Russell Martin, Michael Spillane is coming through and better? Ryan Jarvis, England u-21s regular, has just joined Aldershot on loan.

Toffolo seems the best of the current crop. McGeehan may be easier to spot on the Football League Show, but young Harry has at least got a permanent starting slot in a high-flying league one side, and a couple of assists to his name I think.

In the end it seems the 15 year olds we sign are just not in the same class as the Walcotts, Bales, Oxlade-Chamberlains and Clynes of this world.

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In the broader analysis of this, doesn''t it, as so often, come down to our old friend, good old hard cash ?It''s nice to think that producing your own youngsters is a good, cost effective option, but, for a lot of clubs, much of the time it isn''t . Running an academy is not cheap, and, as others have said  for every Bellamy, Bale and Oxlade Chamberlain  who get sold for big bucks,there are literally dozens of people like Ryan Jarvis who simply disappear without a trace.In fact, it''s a hell of a lot cheaper to buy in European or African talent from the French, Belgian or Dutch leagues . Whilst there are transfer fees to pay, it still works out often cheaper than growing your own. Surely one of the reasons why foreign players are not just the preserve of Prem and Champ sides, but can be found plying their trade in Lgs One and Two , and even lower.

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This seems like a good opportunity to remind people that the U21''s are playing Man City at the Carrow tomorrow.Kick off is 7pm and entry is free.

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It needs a conscious decision to go with youth more.  If you send a player to a L2 or L1 they will likely end up as L1 or 2 players.   If they are good enough to be at Norwich they should be blooded in the first team asap and trusted.   It is imo the only way you will ever establish a culture of moving from youth team to first team.  You have to just do it.

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fourfourtwo magazine ran an article on youth football about 5 or 6 years ago... of all the youth players currently at clubs around the country only 1% will ever go on to play a professional game....

Thats a staggering figure but one that perhaps open eyes to how teams operate, how players develop and maybe just the way the game is.

I used to play Sunday Mornings with a guy who had been at Norwich for years, he had been in the same side as Ian Crook and Reggie Blinkers son and there were loads of talented youngsters in the side...

Only Joe Lewis plays professionally now out of that squad...there were 35 year 1 and 2 scholars on the clubs books... most play high level Saturday league now.

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[quote user="lake district canary"]It needs a conscious decision to go with youth more.  If you send a player to a L2 or L1 they will likely end up as L1 or 2 players.   If they are good enough to be at Norwich they should be blooded in the first team asap and trusted.   It is imo the only way you will ever establish a culture of moving from youth team to first team.  You have to just do it.

[/quote]But that was my point earlier Lakey. Norwich , like the majority of clubs, clearly feel that buying the semi finished article in either from British clubs or abroad is a more cost-effective way of stocking the first team squad . On the basis that you can only have 11 players on the field at any one time, the openings for youth players are going to be thus limited. Conscious decision ? Well possibly.I''m not sure I agree with your other point. One of the reasons why young players are sent to Lg1/2 teams is not just because they are only that standard. More to do with toughening them up and getting them fit enough for first team football . Unfortunately, a lot of younger players who get used to the levels of fitness required for Youth team games cannot hack it when asked to up the levels for League football of any level. Even Conference and Lg 2 football is played at breakneck speed and intensity these days .

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="lake district canary"]It needs a conscious decision to go with youth more.  If you send a player to a L2 or L1 they will likely end up as L1 or 2 players.   If they are good enough to be at Norwich they should be blooded in the first team asap and trusted.   It is imo the only way you will ever establish a culture of moving from youth team to first team.  You have to just do it.

[/quote]But that was my point earlier Lakey. Norwich , like the majority of clubs, clearly feel that buying the semi finished article in either from British clubs or abroad is a more cost-effective way of stocking the first team squad . On the basis that you can only have 11 players on the field at any one time, the openings for youth players are going to be thus limited. Conscious decision ? Well possibly.I''m not sure I agree with your other point. One of the reasons why young players are sent to Lg1/2 teams is not just because they are only that standard. More to do with toughening them up and getting them fit enough for first team football . Unfortunately, a lot of younger players who get used to the levels of fitness required for Youth team games cannot hack it when asked to up the levels for League football of any level. Even Conference and Lg 2 football is played at breakneck speed and intensity these days .[/quote]

In music, great musicians are usually identified quite early and often achieve the very top at a young age.  I have always thought that sport should be similar.  Blood young talent early and get them used to the cut and thrust at an early age.  In tennis it is well known that it takes British players longer to break through than other countries'' players.  It could just be that the psychology of youth sports in this country and how to bring it through are flawed.  Coaching regimes, easy going culture, motivation, may all be problems  in sportsmen/women here.

If at seventeen a player is showing sufficient ability at a club, the only way he is going to get the right sort of experience is by playing in the first team.  Leave it too long and doubts set in.   Look at Jacob Murphy.  Not apparently good enough for us, but perfectly capable at the same level in a different team.   There is a strong argument to say  that in a better team - us - he could have done even better, given the opportunity.  Josh, despite promise, has not been given an extended run in the team.  They may not be considered "ready" by experts, but when is anyone ready to step up?  At what age is a footballer ready?  Imo, if they have the ability, you get them in as soon as you can and show belief in them.  Young people, in my experience rarely let you down if you show faith in them.

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A few years ago I''d have agreed with you, Lakey, but many of these kids have not even stopped growing at 17, and certainly few have the necessary body strength to cope with the ''cut and thrust'' of top level modern professional football. There are exceptions of course (eg Rooney), but pitch some of these lads in too early, and not only could they get injured/disheartened, but how many top teams can afford to take that sort of risk these days ?Of course, that''s where your music analogy falls down. In an orchestra, there is little or no physical strength and stamina needed, so your child prodigies can compete with more seasoned operators. And I"m sure you''ll disagree with me, but surely music is not as ultra competitive in the same way as team sports are?! I''m rather assuming that there were not hordes of rival lads itching to break the young Mozart''s fingers when he was entertaining all those people in the royal Vienna palaces !!!

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]A few years ago I''d have agreed with you, Lakey, but many of these kids have not even stopped growing at 17, and certainly few have the necessary body strength to cope with the ''cut and thrust'' of top level modern professional football. There are exceptions of course (eg Rooney), but pitch some of these lads in too early, and not only could they get injured/disheartened, but how many top teams can afford to take that sort of risk these days ?Of course, that''s where your music analogy falls down. In an orchestra, there is little or no physical strength and stamina needed, so your child prodigies can compete with more seasoned operators. And I"m sure you''ll disagree with me, but surely music is not as ultra competitive in the same way as team sports are?! I''m rather assuming that there were not hordes of rival lads itching to break the young Mozart''s fingers when he was entertaining all those people in the royal Vienna palaces !!![/quote]

Yes, you''re probably right on the first count. People like Rooney, Milner, Barclay are your more physical type players anyway so were always more likely to break through earlier. But the premise is still that the earlier you get them in the easier they will find it to learn to adapt.  Leave it too late and they may have the maturity, but may have lost the ability to adapt to a higher level.

Physically music may be less demanding, but psychologically, the demands to perform in front of thousands at the highest level, sometimes millions of people, is pretty similar.    Nerves, confidence, concentration, expectations, mental stamina are pretty much the same in most performing situations, sport and music and other performing arts.  The competition in the music business to get to the top is probably on a par with football too.   

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I don''t think we are missing a trick.

I think all are missing the trick, even Chelsea who released jack cork will note he has become a prem player. But they knew he wasn''t good enough for Chelsea.

A number of you are right; they are not as good as fans believe they are hence a loan to Luton. Secondly it we go up there is no way they should be near the first team. They are not good enough.

Where do they get tested? Tough call it is on loan but players have to develop quickly.

Let''s not forget many players we get are from prem team youthsetup and I believe that is what we should do. I have always said they are the young players you being in. Lansbury, naughton, mulryne, Gibbs etc developed into better players than many of our recent youngsters.

Adeyemi had size and ability, he is better than k smith. Many players we had had have drifted and certainly I would not be thinking that is the answer to our current position.

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[quote user="lake district canary"]

Physically music may be less demanding, but psychologically, the demands to perform in front of thousands at the highest level, sometimes millions of people, is pretty similar.    Nerves, confidence, concentration, expectations, mental stamina are pretty much the same in most performing situations, sport and music and other performing arts.  The competition in the music business to get to the top is probably on a par with football too.   

[/quote]That is kind of my point. I''m sure that the young musicians have to have all the qualities you mention (concentration, mental stamina etc), in the same way that young footballers do. But the footballer needs to have physical strength/stamina in addition to the mental ones.Where I do agree with you is this.Though I''ve never been directly involved myself, I''ve read articles that have suggested that more than 50% of young trainee football players don''t make it not because they are not good or strong enough, but more that they are just not switched on mentally enough or even not dedicated enough.

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With the lack of youth players making the first team I''ve come to the conclusion that our youth system must be poor. The fact that we can''t take players at a young age, train them up over several years and have them able to step into central midfield in front of Whittaker is testament to this.

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[quote user="kirsty"]With the lack of youth players making the first team I''ve come to the conclusion that our youth system must be poor. The fact that we can''t take players at a young age, train them up over several years and have them able to step into central midfield in front of Whittaker is testament to this.[/quote]Thats the point though, until fairly recently we really weren''t spending the money on youth.It will take time to reap the benefits.

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