RvW to return to NCFC end of season

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

Don''t see why it has to be a ''battle''.

Out of the recently promoted teams most who try to ''battle'' their way to survival are relegated, whilst those who have tried to play football primarily have survived and flourished.

Swansea and Southampton are the best examples of teams who have gone onto great success with ''fancy'' players playing football.

Whilst the battling QPR with Karl Henry and Joey Barton are likely to be relegated again with that mindset.

[Dave 0]

I would love to see RVW prove himself for us, and under the right manager and style of play i think he could.

Other NCFC players in the past have played badly under one manager and gone on to do well under another, the big difference is they often went trough quietly as they didnt have massive price tags.

Lets be fair to RVW we could have had the best striker in the world under hughton but thanks to his style of play they would have struggled to score

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="Angry man"]Good I''m sure Alex would actually play him correctly and do something that our two previous managers couldn''t.......give him service!!!.[/quote]st Etienne have been playing him properly and giving him service...maybe it''s just because he''s Sh*t?I honestly think his next move will be to league 1

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"][quote user="Angry man"]Good I''m sure Alex would actually play him correctly and do something that our two previous managers couldn''t.......give him service!!!.[/quote]st Etienne have been playing him properly and giving him service...maybe it''s just because he''s Sh*t?I honestly think his next move will be to league 1[/quote]He probably earns as much on his own as some League 1 clubs'' total wage bill!

[The Phantom 0]

We should get him back now to aid the promotion push and it''s not all bad news he has the best looking wag at the club

[KoromaCrab 0]

is it possible to get him back early?

[Woodman 92]

or back for the playoff final if we need him - what a story that would be!

[Syteanric 1]

we cant get him back until the 31st of may i beleive.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="lake district canary"]However, I would prefer to think that his time at Sporting Lisbon is a truer reflection of his ability and that the Portugese league is at least as good as the Championship...........[/quote]Sadly I just don''t think that''s the case LDC.If we look at the "Strongest National League Rankings" (as compiled by IFFHS) and remove the main non-european leagues we see the following:

Overall Place	Country	Points
1	Spain	1155,00
2	England	1128,00
3	Germany	1056,00
4	Italy	927,00
7	France	796,00
8	Russia	739,50
10	Romania	722,50
12	Switzerland	698,00
13	Turkey	683,50
14	Ukraine	682,00
16	Belgium	669,50
17	Czech Republic	661,50
18	Portugal	646,50
21	Netherlands	578,50
22	Greece	578,00
25	Scotland	503,00
26	Cyprus	488,50
27	Bulgaria	486,50
28	Austria	476,00
29	Norway	472,00
32	Croatia	458,00
33	Denmark	435,50

Neither the Dutch or Portuguese leagues are faring well overall in the rankings, generally with just 1-2 ''good'' sides in each league carrying the main part of their weight (e.g Benfica/Sporting Lisbon, and Ajax/PSV/AZ), and even leagues like Switzerland and the Ukraine who are generally not well regarded by most UK based fans are above them in the table...Much like how I wouldn''t class the SPL as being a high quality league, you still get Celtic competing in the Champions League each season which makes that particular side a cut above their counterparts but still in a relatively poor league overall.I''d argue that the Championship is the best ''second tier'' league in Europe for quality and probably above half of the above table IF those teams competed in more international cups and there wasn''t the vast financial gulf to the prem that makes even an FA/League Cup win tough to acheive.All that being said, I do think that RVW is more than good enough for this level, and probably can do a job in the Prem if used correctly and kept well motivated. It was a complete travesty how badly Hughton mis-used the guy, and whilst I think it''s fair to say that RVW himself didn''t perform as well as we''d all hoped, he was fighting an uphill battle from the start in a Hughton managed team that had drained the goalscoring performances of EVERY SINGLE STRIKER who''d previously performed and scored well under Lambert or other managers.The truth is that the decision will come down to how AN wants us to play, whether or not he thinks RVW can do a job in the system he wishes to use, and whether or not if he can - if he''s worth the money we''re paying him to do that job...

[KiwiScot 1,443]

The question is if we get promoted where is RVW going to be in the pecking order with the inclusion of a striker or 2 that we would most likely buy after gaining promotion? RVW would probably play if we remain in the championship other than that he will be sold.

[GJP 79]

Not really sure what I could see him giving us that the other strikers couldn''t. Plus the others have gone and delivered for AN already.

 

Obviously RVW hasn''t had that opportunity but AN strikes me like the kind of manager who is going to keep faith with the guys that have done it for him... unless he''s in a position to bring in someone exceptional and RVW isn''t that.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="lake district canary"]However, I would prefer to think that his time at Sporting Lisbon is a truer reflection of his ability and that the Portugese league is at least as good as the Championship...........[/quote]Sadly I just don''t think that''s the case LDC.If we look at the "Strongest National League Rankings" (as compiled by IFFHS) and remove the main non-european leagues we see the following:

Overall Place	Country	Points
1	Spain	1155,00
2	England	1128,00
3	Germany	1056,00
4	Italy	927,00
7	France	796,00
8	Russia	739,50
10	Romania	722,50
12	Switzerland	698,00
13	Turkey	683,50
14	Ukraine	682,00
16	Belgium	669,50
17	Czech Republic	661,50
18	Portugal	646,50
21	Netherlands	578,50
22	Greece	578,00
25	Scotland	503,00
26	Cyprus	488,50
27	Bulgaria	486,50
28	Austria	476,00
29	Norway	472,00
32	Croatia	458,00
33	Denmark	435,50

Neither the Dutch or Portuguese leagues are faring well overall in the rankings, generally with just 1-2 ''good'' sides in each league carrying the main part of their weight (e.g Benfica/Sporting Lisbon, and Ajax/PSV/AZ), and even leagues like Switzerland and the Ukraine who are generally not well regarded by most UK based fans are above them in the table...Much like how I wouldn''t class the SPL as being a high quality league, you still get Celtic competing in the Champions League each season which makes that particular side a cut above their counterparts but still in a relatively poor league overall.I''d argue that the Championship is the best ''second tier'' league in Europe for quality and probably above half of the above table IF those teams competed in more international cups and there wasn''t the vast financial gulf to the prem that makes even an FA/League Cup win tough to acheive.All that being said, I do think that RVW is more than good enough for this level, and probably can do a job in the Prem if used correctly and kept well motivated. It was a complete travesty how badly Hughton mis-used the guy, and whilst I think it''s fair to say that RVW himself didn''t perform as well as we''d all hoped, he was fighting an uphill battle from the start in a Hughton managed team that had drained the goalscoring performances of EVERY SINGLE STRIKER who''d previously performed and scored well under Lambert or other managers.The truth is that the decision will come down to how AN wants us to play, whether or not he thinks RVW can do a job in the system he wishes to use, and whether or not if he can - if he''s worth the money we''re paying him to do that job...[/quote]To be fair, all those stats prove is compairing countries overall as to which is better overall.The comparison was between the Championship and the top league in Portugal - which isn''t reflected in those statistics.Also "every single striker who''d previously performed and scored well under Lambert or other managers" - so Grant Holt?In my opinion, our attacking line up has not looked as good as it does now bar the exception of Holt a few seasons ago.You can argue Chris Martin but he needed game time and didn''t really get much under Lambert either. Then you have Steve Morison who scored 10 goals in 53 appearances (according to wikipedia). Then you have Simeon Jackson - who, whichever way you look at it, hasn''t gone on to do anything better. Vaughan - there is always Vaughan, seems to have been a waste of money to me. Not really torn up trees at Huddersfield, consistant maybe but he hasn''t turned any heads higher up, possibly due to injury. You could throw Butterfield in there as well but well, it doesn''t really help the argument.I think the reality is that including Holt, Lambert got our players to perform well as a team, as a unit. I think he also knew that the biggest test would be when that unit, when that team had to be broken up to be improved.Even in that first premier league season we started to look suspect, and it was clear that our next season was going to need a bit more than lots and lots of hard work and guts. We''d need a bit of quality as well.To be fair to Hughton, I think he did well in his first season to tighten up the defence and midfield so us leaking shocking amounts of goals was less of an issue. But again, we started to look suspect when teams started to realise that we had not invested very highly in our striking department.And that, for me, is where Hughton fell apart in his second season. Pinning all of our hopes on three strikers - Hooper, RVW and Elmander. None of them had enough, Elmander had looked good in fits and starts for Bolton seasons before, but age and form were against him. Hooper had never played in a top European league (sorry to Scottish football fans, but the Scottish premier league is no longer a top European league) and our hopes rested very much upon a player who had a decent record in the leagues he had graced before.Undoubtedly I think we overpaid for RVW, but his reccord at that point was still decent - but as has been seen with other signings for our team and for other clubs, it doesn''t always translate into goals for their new sides. Diego Forlan anyone? Not only that, there are players who come with very little in terms of records but then seem to take to English football better than where they had been before.That is how signings go - they work, they don''t work. It''s the expensive ones we seem to remember the most like Alves for Middlesborough . . . .

[93vintage 16]

[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]Don''t see why it has to be a ''battle''.

Out of the recently promoted teams most who try to ''battle'' their way to survival are relegated, whilst those who have tried to play football primarily have survived and flourished.

Swansea and Southampton are the best examples of teams who have gone onto great success with ''fancy'' players playing football.

Whilst the battling QPR with Karl Henry and Joey Barton are likely to be relegated again with that mindset.[/quote]I agree with your general sentiment, but we''re a long way from being as good as Swansea were when they got promoted. It remains to be seen what Alex Neil''s aims are regarding how we will play, but if history is any guide we won''t be a footballing side like Swansea and the board will be happy with survival (as long as the football is ''exciting'').

[Alex Moss 2,165]

It seems to me that the tide has turned slightly and more posters on here are becoming more open to RvW returning and at least letting Alex (great name btw) Neil run the rule over him in the summer.

And I''m in total agreement. I can''t see how it would hurt one bit to at least bring him back for the summer, or the start of pre season at least, and see what AN thinks of him for himself. Only a fool would say it makes more sense to sell him at a loss immediately over offloading him a few weeks later after AN''s had a good look at him - what''s to lose? Nothing whatsoever. And possibly everything to gain. It''s a no brainer in my eyes.

I would like to at least see what he can do in this setup, in a new found positive and confidence high environment, in a more fluid creative team that has some spark and unpredictability, than not at all. Everything that was the complete opposite of Hughton''s Norwich. To be honest, it''d be one of those things that would probably bug me forever if AN didn''t at least run the rule over him before shipping him out, otherwise myself and I''m sure a few others of you will always be left with a slight sense of ''What if?'' about RvW I think. I''ll never forget Iwan''s first season here.

I do seem to recall one player saying he couldn''t fathom how it wasn''t happening on the pitch for Ricky as in training he showed absolutely top notch technique and ability. For me, AN needs to get his confidence back, get him in the gym to beef up a bit, and then some of us can have some closure if you like either way on him! Personally, I hope it works out well for Ricky here. Time will tell...

[Horse Renoir 1]

The only way this has a happy ending for us or him is if he comes back here and performs well, if not we''ll lose a tonne of money on him and he''ll struggle to get a decent club ever again, certainly he''d have blown his chance in England.

I''m desperate to see him succeed, but for me, despite being a good finisher when confident and a clever runner some of his basic footballing skills like ball control, passing and all round technique are Sunday league quality and he struggles to compete physically as well.

The English, French and German leagues are very physical and fast paced, I don''t think he''ll ever cut it in those. If I was his agent I''d be looking for a move to Italy or maybe Spain if he still has aspirations to play at the top level

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="chicken"]Also "every single striker who''d previously performed and scored well under Lambert or other managers" - so Grant Holt?[/quote]Nope, it''s far worse than that:Morison: 22(12) 9 goals -> 4(15) 1 GoalHolt: 24(12) 15 Goals -> 28(6) 8 GoalsPilkington: 23(7) 8 Goals -> 25(5) 5 GoalsJackson: 10(12) 3 Goals -> 5(8) 1 GoalsBecchio: 26 (CCC) 15 Goals -> 2(6) 0 GoalsHooper: 35 (CCC) 19 Goals or 43 (SPL/CL) 23 Goals  -> 22(10) 6 GoalsElmander: 22 (TSL/CL) 4 Goals -> 16(13) 1 GoalRVW: 35 (PL/EL) 15 Goals -> 16(9) 1 GoalSome of those players got even less goals in their 2nd season under Hughton as well (namely Becchio and Pilks)!Hughton''s awful tactics and misuse of strikers reduced their previous (or most recent) goal tallies by at least 50%+ in almost every single case and the facts here are undeniable.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

@RickySpanish

The first thing to go when you''re playing with severe unconfidence is basic ball control. The fear of touching it when you''re aware a ground full of supporters are deriding your every move. A heavy touch is a classic sign of this, and I, aswell as yourself noticed this repeatedly the last season.

You can only attribute that to a lack of confidence. I''m sorry but this is the most basic skill and we as supporters would have to be incredibly thick to think he''d manage to make it into senior football without the basic ability to trap a ball comfortably. I''m sorry but I just can''t buy that!. That bad a touch can only be down to a severe lack of confidence, absolutely no question.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Alex "]@RickySpanish

The first thing to go when you''re playing with severe unconfidence is basic ball control. The fear of touching it when you''re aware a ground full of supporters are deriding your every move. A heavy touch is a classic sign of this, and I, aswell as yourself noticed this repeatedly the last season.

You can only attribute that to a lack of confidence. I''m sorry but this is the most basic skill and we as supporters would have to be incredibly thick to think he''d manage to make it into senior football without the basic ability to trap a ball comfortably. I''m sorry but I just can''t buy that!. That bad a touch can only be down to a severe lack of confidence, absolutely no question.[/quote]If his poor ball-control with us was down simply to a lack of confidence then the period for St-Etienne in November and December when he scored five goals (four in the league and one in the Europa League) should have solved the problem. Instead he hasn''t scored since, apart from in the Coupe de France against  lower-league opposition, and is now an unused sub in a team short of goalscorers.

[GJP 79]

I find it a bit odd how many people are keen to see RVW given another chance when plenty of people were writing off Grabban earlier this season.

[Newton 0]

Wolf very good at tap ins

We lost £8M & have got to pay his wages for another 2 years

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

I''m afraid business and maths will come into this, along with the realities of football.

Unless Norwich take a big hit on RVW, they have a clear option to retain the player as a fourth choice striker. In the Premier League multiple strikers are necessary and - given the position - the calculation would start from zero at "would we sign RVW for free at £35k per week as a 4th striker in the PL". Given the finances in the top league this is not a bad option.

Another year in the Championship would see another "free" year long loan, which could materialise in a Premuer League season, though this would confirm no confidence in RVW''s abilities whatsoever, which is not what I would expect.

AN would certainly want to spend some time with RVW in the summer if promotion is achieved. He might be able to perform a lobe strikers role in the AN system, which is - as far as possible - to occupy the opposition back four and pull centre backs out of shape and into uncomfortable areas, whilst sometimes drifting into wider areas and drawing the attention of full backs.

If you watch Portuguese footage of RVW he had a penchant for driving angled runs from wider positions, with his fluid movement a key factor. He liked to run onto the ball and had a good habit of striking the ball early. Norwich under Hughton never played in a remotely suitable way to assess whether this was a product of open spaces in a weak league, or a player with ability and high level movement. That United watched him regularly over an extended period makes it unlikely he is / was / has always been / must always be useless. No honest fan will forget his goal against Everton, which was truly instinctive, impressive and the product of someone with something in his locker.

Having said all of that, a striker with no confidence is a striker with no confidence. It can be terminal. Can he come back with a mental clean slate? Can the players and staff view him with untarnished eyes? Does the Manager fancy the job of resurrector or will he just fancy spending some money on his own cherry?

The nature of football and pre-season is in RVW''s favour. Just like fans, players start the beginning of each season as wide-eyed virgins with the possibilities of the world in front them.

My money is on a low-key rebirth not as the Messiah, but a useful fourth option for occasional late-game pilgrimages.

Parma

Having said all of that, the

[Crabbycanary3 994]

You''re leaving us hanging Parma......

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="chicken"]Also "every single striker who''d previously performed and scored well under Lambert or other managers" - so Grant Holt?[/quote]Nope, it''s far worse than that:Morison: 22(12) 9 goals -> 4(15) 1 GoalHolt: 24(12) 15 Goals -> 28(6) 8 GoalsPilkington: 23(7) 8 Goals -> 25(5) 5 GoalsJackson: 10(12) 3 Goals -> 5(8) 1 GoalsBecchio: 26 (CCC) 15 Goals -> 2(6) 0 GoalsHooper: 35 (CCC) 19 Goals or 43 (SPL/CL) 23 Goals  -> 22(10) 6 GoalsElmander: 22 (TSL/CL) 4 Goals -> 16(13) 1 GoalRVW: 35 (PL/EL) 15 Goals -> 16(9) 1 GoalSome of those players got even less goals in their 2nd season under Hughton as well (namely Becchio and Pilks)!Hughton''s awful tactics and misuse of strikers reduced their previous (or most recent) goal tallies by at least 50%+ in almost every single case and the facts here are undeniable.[/quote]Right - Jackson, wasn''t good enough in the first season let alone the second premier league season. Morison was ok at best but never going to be a regular. Pilkington is a wide player and not a striker. Elmander''s goal scoring record was great before he came here wasn''t it? which really leaves Hooper who had been scoring bucket loads in the Scottish Premier League - you know, the league where Boyd scored a load before moving to Middlesborough and being found to be useless.That leaves Becchio, who''se signing just seemed to be a straight mistake and RVW.As I said before. Hughtons biggest downfall was that he didn''t sign more strikers and ones who were going to be a little more reliable. Out of the three we had in Hughton''s last season, Elmander has never been proliffic, RVW was in his first season of British football and Hooper had been scoring regularly but only in a league where there are less than a handful of Championship level clubs let alone premier league level clubs.A lot of your comparisons prove little. He didn''t turn the majority of those strikers into poor strikers. Lambert had been able to get the best out of them - the problem is, that there is only so long that you can get away with wearing the ''Emperor''s New Clothes''. Jackson and Morison were just not good enough for the premier league. Holt wanted out - we just didn''t bring in anyone with proven quality at that level.Compare that to now, we have Hooper, Jerome, Lafferty and Grabban. I would take that striking line up above any of our previous line ups in the premier league with one exception - Grant Holt.However, good reliable strikers for the premier league don''t cost £3-4million anymore. They often cost more than £7.5million too. Bony, for example, cost Swansea £12million. Shane Long''s last move was rumoured to have cost over £10million.I think we have a steal in Jerome, I really do, and I think we also have a relative steal in Grabban at a time when you consider how much other proven and non-proven championship level strikers have cost. Wilson - £3million, Assombalonga - £5-8million, Rhodes - £8million, McCormack - £11million. And remember - this is the Championship!

[The Walking Man 13]

I blame Snodgrass.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="The Walking Man "]I blame Snodgrass.[/quote]

[:D]