Feedthewolf

I think that's reactionary nonsense. He's come back extremely strongly from a potentially career-ending injury, and has been playing really well since he came back – coinciding with an excellent run of form in which we'd lost one in 10 (Sargent obviously a big factor in that too, though). He had a poor game last night, as we collectively melted down after the red card. Deep breaths, on to Saturday.

Well that's one possible interpretation...

I've added Aboh and Welch to the squad (even though it looks like Aboh will be on his way in the summer). Also updated injuries and suspensions. GOALKEEPERS (7, 4 out on loan) Y Archie Mair (born 10.2.01, age 23): signed until 2024 and on loan to Morecambe for 2023/24 season (contract signed in March 2021) HY 37 Daniel Barden (born 2.1.01, age 23): signed until 2024 (contract signed in March 2021) H Joe Rose (born 5.11.01, age 22): signed until 2024 with club option to 2025 (contract signed in June 2023) H 38 Jon McCracken (born 24.5.00, age 23): signed until 2024 and on loan to Dundee for 2023/24 season (contract signed in February 2022) HF 28 Angus Gunn (born 22.1.96, age 28): signed until 2025 (contract signed in June 2021) Y 39 Vicente Reyes (born 19.11.03, age 20): signed until ???? and on loan to Forest Green Rovers for 2023/24 season (contract signed in June 2023) 12 George Long (born 5.11.93, age 30): signed until 2025 (contract signed in August 2023) DEFENDERS (13, 4 out on loan) H 15 Sam McCallum (born 2.9.00, age 23): signed until 2024 (contract signed in January 2020) HF 5 Grant Hanley (born 20.11.91, age 32): signed until 2025 (contract signed in July 2021) H 6 Ben Gibson (born 15.1.93, age 31): signed until 2024 (contract signed in July 2021) H 50 Jaden Warner (born 28.10.02, age 21): signed until 2025 and on loan to Notts County for 2023/24 season (contract signed in December 2020) F 30 Dimitris Giannoulis (born 17.10.95, age 28): signed until 2024 (contract signed in July 2021) H 45 Jonathan Tomkinson (born 11.4.02, age 21): signed until 2025 with club option to 2026 and on loan to Bradford City for 2023/24 season (contract signed in October 2022) H Lewis Shipley (born 29.11.03, age 20): signed until 2025 and on loan to Accrington Stanley for 2023/24 season (contract signed in December 2021) H Brad Hills (born 10.3.04, age 19): signed until 2025 with club option to 2026 and on loan to Accrington Stanley for 2023/24 season (contract signed in November 2022) H 3 Jack Stacey (born 6.4.96, age 27): signed until 2026 (contract signed in May 2023) HF 24 Shane Duffy inj (born 1.1.92, age 32): signed until 2026 (contract signed in June 2023) H 35 Kellen Fisher (born 5.5.04, age 19): signed until ???? (contract signed in June 2023) Y Guilherme Montóia (born 14.9.03, age 20): signed until 2025 with club option to 2026 (contract signed in August 2023) H 21 Danny Batth (born 21.9.90, age 33): signed until 2024 with club option to 2025 (contract signed in August 2023) MIDFIELDERS (13, 2 out on loan) F 23 Kenny McLean (born 8.1.92, age 32): signed until 2026 with club option to 2027 (contract signed in September 2023) F 25 Onel Hernandez inj (born 1.2.93, age 31): signed until 2025 with club option to 2026 (contract signed in April 2023) 19 Jacob Lungi Sørensen (born 3.3.98, age 25): signed until 2024 with club option to 2025 (contract signed in July 2021) H 42 Tony Springett (born 22.9.02, age 21): signed until 2026 with club option to 2027 and on loan to Northampton Town for 2023/24 season (contract signed in October 2022) H 8 Liam Gibbs (born 16.12.02, age 21) signed until 2028 (contract signed in July 2023) 17 Gabriel Sara (born 26.6.99, age 24): signed until 2026 with club option to 2027 (contract signed in July 2022) F 26 Marcelino Núñez (born 1.3.00, age 23): signed until 2026 (contract signed in August 2022) H Regan Riley (born 12.11.02, age 21) signed until 2024 with club option to 2025 (contract signed in February 2021) HY Flynn Clarke (born 19.12.02, age 21) signed until 2024 with club option to 2025 and on loan to Sçunthorpe United for 2023/24 season (contract signed in June 2021) 7 Borja Sainz sus (born 21.2.01, age 22): signed until 2026 (contract signed in June 2023) F 16 Christian Fassnacht (born 11.11.93, age 30): signed until 2025 with club option to 2026 (contract signed in July 2023) Pedro Lima (born 27.3.03, age 20): signed on loan from Palmeiras until 2024 (contract signed in August 2023) H 43 Finley Welch (born 3.10.04, age 19): signed until 2026 with club option to 2027 (contract signed in October 2023) FORWARDS (8, 3 out on loan) HF 11 Adam Idah (born 11.2.01, age 23): signed until 2028 and on loan to Celtic for 2023/24 season (contract signed in February 2023) F 9 Josh Sargent (born 20.2.00, age 23): signed until 2028 (contract signed in October 2023) F 18 Christos Tzolis (born 30.1.02, age 22): signed until 2026 and on loan to Fortuna Düsseldorf for 2023/24 season (contract signed in August 2021) H 27 Jonathan Rowe inj (born 30.4.03, age 20): signed until 2025 with club option to 2026 (contract signed in January 2022) H Abu Kamara (born 21.7.03, age 20), signed until 2025 and on loan to Portsmouth for 2023/24 season (contract signed in October 2021) H 10 Ashley Barnes (born 30.10.89, age 34), signed until 2025 (contract signed in May 2023) 14 Sydney van Hooijdonk (born 6.2.00, age 24), signed on loan from Bologna until 2024 (contract signed in February 2024) H 44 Ken Aboh (born 9.11.04, age 19): signed until 2024 (contract signed in December 2021) Finally, here are all the squad members listed by year of contract expiry, with (+1) indicating we have the option of an extra year: 2024 McCallum, Mair, Barden (+1), Gibson, Giannoulis, Sørensen (+1), McCracken, Rose (+1), Riley (+1), Lima (loan), Batth (+1), van Hooijdonk (loan), Aboh (13 players, 6 with an extra year) 2025 Gunn, Hanley, Rowe (+1), Warner, Tomkinson (+1), Kamara, Shipley, Hills (+1), Clarke (+1) Hernandez (+1), Barnes, Fassnacht (+1), Montóia (+1), Long (14 players, 7 with an extra year) 2026 Tzolis, Sara (+1), Núñez, Springett (+1), Stacey, Duffy, Sainz, McLean (+1), Welch (+1), Reyes* (10 players, 4 with an extra year) 2027 Fisher* (1 player) 2028 Idah, Gibbs, Sargent (3 players) *Contract expiry date from Transfermarkt, not verified by club

It's Rotherham at home – we should be more than strong enough. That team was dominant until the red card, so I'd make as few changes as possible. Personally I'd bring McCallum in and shift Dimi forward, and otherwise leave it unchanged.

Nope, that's one of the criteria for the award of a direct free-kick, it's nothing to do with the red card. The sanction is dependent on the severity/force of said action, as follows: Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed Reckless is when a player acts with disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, an opponent and must be cautioned Using excessive force is when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and endangers the safety of an opponent and must be sent off So, yes, you could make a case for 'kicks or attempts to kick an opponent', but I'm struggling to see how it's reckless, let alone using excessive force. The only way the referee can give a red for that is if he deems it's violent conduct, for which the criteria are as follows: Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made. In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible. Only the bit in bold is relevant here; Madley must have believed that Sainz was using, or attempting to use, 'excessive force or brutality' against Howson. I think we can clearly demonstrate that not to be the case, so I would expect it to be overturned. Addendum – regarding Howson's tackle, it clearly meets the criteria for serious foul play (and thus a red card) in my eyes: A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play.Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.

Nah, not really. There's plenty of nuance in this situation that makes it very difficult to come to a decision. I appreciate your hot take, though.

At the very least it could serve as mitigation that it's not a frivolous appeal. Although reading the Pinkun match report, the journo doesn't sound too optimistic about our chances: "Sainz had already claimed one needless red card in the 1-0 loss to West Brom on Boxing Day, but his spat with former Canary Jonny Howson proved he’d learned nothing from that encounter. City skipper Grant Hanley’s furious reaction to the Spaniard’s kick out told the story, with no complaints from Sainz when Bobby Madley reached into his back pocket." A really tough one to get my head around, this!

I don't care, personally. Don't even mind binner fans being on here if they're civil and up for a reasonable football discussion, but this berk literally only comes on here to rile people up. Ridiculous that he's still allowed to post here.

The more I watch it, the more I am inclined to agree with you. It's certainly not natural the way that Sainz spins round and launches his feet upwards, though, so even though the contact was negligible (and certainly not using 'excessive force'), it's easy to see in the spur of the moment how the referee feels that Sainz has studded Howson's thigh and overreacted with the red. Even knowing how much the panels tend to side with the ref where possible, I think we've got a decent chance of getting it overturned. A four-match ban for that seems ridiculous, especially if we can demonstrate that the tackle that caused the reaction was a red card offence in itself.

@SouthwellC, can we get rid of this moron now? Blatant binner who only comes on here to take the p*ss.

Definitely a case for Howson's challenge being a red, from that still (although I've not yet seen replays). Ayling should have been cautioned for the earlier foul on Sainz IMO, but no way that was a red. As for Sainz, I agree that it's a very harsh interpretation of the law to send him off, but I can see how it could have been interpreted as such (and I've watched it at least a dozen times now). Very hard to make an argument for 'excessive force' or 'brutality'.

Yes, those are facts. But to say 'once again Norwich completely implode' isn't really indicative of how we've been playing recently. I was at QPR and I was very vocal about how I thought (and still think) Wagner's changes cost us two points that day. We're definitely a lot better than we were before Christmas, though, and at least (before tonight) we were picking up points away while winning all our home games (against promotion rivals, too). The wording just felt a bit excessive compared to the reality, for me.

Yep, looking at all the angles I've seen so far, that's about right. Still dumb of Sainz to react how he did, but Howson has totally played us there.

Hang on, we've managed 21 points from our last 10 matches before tonight, with our only defeat in that time being 1-0 away to Leeds.

To be fair, I hadn't seen that image. I did think in real time that Howson had fouled Sainz, but that could indeed have been a red card for Howson's initial challenge. Makes it even more galling that Sainz reacted to it and got himself sent off.

It wasn't a 'challenge'. He wasn't competing for the ball. I'm not saying I think it's a nailed-on red, but I can understand why it's been given. As with the WBA red card, he's given the referee a decision to make, so has to take some of the blame.

That doesn't really correlate with anything in the laws of the game relating to violent conduct.

Sports psychology isn't exactly a pseudoscience. It can be worked on.

I thought the same until I saw it from this angle.

Agree that Ayling should have been booked for his tackle on Sainz, but that doesn't exonerate him for planting his studs on an opponent's thigh out of frustration/petulance. Could have been deemed a yellow on another day, but he's had a brain fade and it's cost us big time.

Haha yeah let's just spaff a seven-figure sum on releasing one of our best players rather than harnessing his talent and working on his psychology. Sounds legit.

I blame Sainz, Howson, the ref, Delia, Putin and the tofu-eating wokerati.

I don't think an extra match is added automatically, only if the appeal is deemed 'frivolous'.