Canary02 IV

Regarding Benno, he shows a lot of heart and potential and with his pace and crossing ability he''s a throwback to City wingers of old which is why most of us have a soft spot for him. He''s also one that needs to step up and prove himself a little more, although to be fair he''s never had an extended run in the side to do this before. Regarding Snoddy, if you stick him on the left wing, you won''t get production from him. He doesn''t have the pace or acceleration to gain the half yard on the full back he needs to sling crosses in. He does need to stay on the right to stay involved.

Thanks for considered opinions. If we stay up, add quality and play with more collective attacking intent next year then we''ll have made progress and I (and I suspect many others) will feel a great deal happier. Lambert was always going to be a nightmare act to follow, and I really want Hughton to succeed. My concern is living a lifetime as a worm instead of a day as a lion. I''m not greedy though. I''d settle for a year or two as a house cat!

The current situation at Carrow Road, along with any other issue, polarises opinion. You''re either a "Happy Clappy" or a "Doom Mongerer" at the moment. Of course, most people are neither. I think there are some universal truths that we all agree on. 1) Chris Hughton is a nice bloke, and is respected by managers and players alike. 2) Whilst we are viewing 4-2-3-1 as a negative formation, the vast majority of Premiership teams are also fielding this formation to varying degrees of success. 3) Hughton is risk averse and sticks by his tactics throughout a game. Hughton''s tactics are basically what divides opinion. 4-2-3-1 can be used successfully and in an attacking manner but Hughton uses it in a more withdrawn manner with the emphasis on not conceding, keeping games tight and nicking a goal were we can. This can win you points, and it has. This may well be enough to keep us in the Premier League, which was ultimately our target this season anyway. 17th or better was our target. If we achieve this great. But if we''re struggling near the end of the season do we have the manager or the tactics to try and win games and get three point hauls when we need them? Defending with 11 men behind the ball is a different game when you''re in a relegation battle in April and the nerves are jangling. So some people are concerned because of the negativity that the system creates and whether it will be enough to keep us out of the bottom three. Equally others point out the wins we''ve had against Man Utd and Arsenal to prove that we can win big games and that a manager who can take us 10 games unbeaten can pull us out of the current slump. On the balance of probability a run as bad as ours has been is likely to come to and soon. The conflict for me is that just staying up isn''t good enough. I don''t need sparkling Barcelona-esque champagne football. But I need to feel a sense of passion and a willingness to have a go at the opposition. I need to feel that the Premiership is a party that my team have come to as we want to enjoy ourselves and participate. I don''t want to make up the numbers. Just being here is not good enough. And before I''m called a doom-Mongerer, I''m not calling for Hughton''s head, or for Lambert-like "you score 4, we''ll get 5". I''m not even saying " ditch 4-5-1. Just that I want to be able to have a go at teams and to have enough players forward so that when we have the ball up front we can fashion good chances from open play. If you''re in a fight, self defence is great, but at some point you have to hit back at the person attacking you. Our current style may keep us up and give us access to the financial rewards of that. But if we then spend next season playing as we do now, I feel myself caring less and less about survival. A big bank balance but a timid team that hides in numbers hoping to keep out of trouble doesn''t make me look forward to Saturdays. And at £30 a game for my season ticket, or worse still £50 a game for a casual fan, is that value for money? The response to the QPR result was that it was a good result because it was an away point. But if the best we hope for from an expensive away trip is defending for our lives praying for a clean sheet and the outside chance of sneaking a goal, are we really competing, or just turning up? I''d like to know, genuinely in a non-confrontational way, from those who are considered "Happy-Clappy", or "Pro-Hughton" or whatever the current polar term is, whether they would be content with us continuing to play as we are at the moment for the next 18 months if it meant that we finished 17th each time. It would drive me bananas personally, because for me that''s not success, but for a lot of people, I know the end league position is their measure of success. I''d just like to know whether my view is seen as unreasonable or unrealistic.

I think we need to rotate formations according to the opposition. Play each game as it comes. Keeps more players involved, keeps the opposition guessing.

[quote user="K Lo"][quote user="the1englishman"]I cant think of anything he has brought thats positive. We were told by the happy clappers he will bring a more solid deffensive edge to our play, umm thats worked out well hasnt it !! And if people are only going to talk about the quality players he has brought, perhaps, just perhaps, he should be head scout instead of manager ? And what has happened to the good players we already owned ? They look a different set of players to the ones that had no fear last year. Iam going to sit back and listen to the happy clappers run out there list of much awsomeness team Hughton has brought to our club !! And the list of pathetic excuses such as its not his team etc etc.[/quote]Will you moaning doom-mongers quit it with your "happy clapper" references. If someone had presented you with this exact situation 3 1/2 years ago, what would you (lot) have said "Na''h, we''ll stay in League One, I don''t think I could handle a loss to Luton being in the Prem".Would you swap places right now with QPR, Reading, Wigan ?Do you think Norwich should be up there with Man U, Man C & Chelsea?Most clubs with Norwich''s wherewithall would probably jump at the chance to be where Norwich are, despite the last 6 games or so being dissapointing.So, if we DO get relegated, what can you do about it? Who do you think could do a better job than who we have on the pitch and managing the squad at the moment, given that Jose''s unlikely to take over the reigns?If you want (near) constant success, join the sheep and follow Man U, or Swansea, if you think they''re doing better than us in similar circumstances.No one''s forcing you to follow Norwich; I''m certainly not.[/quote] Yeah, just be grateful for what you''ve got and say nothing because this is as good as we can ever do. When you dream, are they all in drab black and white?

Set pieces and horrendous defending by Swansea. Snodgrass free-kick, Bassong header from a set piece, Holt header from a free kick. We don''t create chances from open play. And other than that one game when have we scored more than twice?

Kane was a last minute panic loan because we''d let Vaughan out and hadn''t been able to buy a replacement. If we hadn''t been at Spurs that night for a game the next day and Hughton hadn''t asked for a favour from his old club he''d never have come here. To be fair we needed another body up front and if we couldn''t get anyone else it was better to have a punt on someone who might have come off than to have had nobody at all. It was always a long shot though and it hasn''t come off. We don''t benefit when he''s on the pitch at the moment, only Spurs will eventually. If we''re going to carry a young striker who isn''t ready I''d rather it be one of the Murphy''s as at least we''ll benefit from that experience in the long run.

I agree Fry, one up front can still be productive and attacking. The issue is that under Hughton it never is. He can''t even make two up front against non-leaguers look attacking because he is so unbearably pessimistic and untrusting of our players and won''t let them get forward to support the forwards.

[quote user="grefstad"]Well...the game was a brutal show of Hughtons tactical failures. He does not know how to change a game, or spur things on. THe fringe players are low of condidence, because HUghton sticked to the same team for 10 games when we were unbeaten, and they never got a sniff in, but for 3 mins at the end. Lambert was more of a team-manager, being able to let everyone feel they had a part to play, but Hughton seem to keep faith with the same dull players week in, week out. Predictably enough, Johnson and Tettey will start against Spurs, in a sitting role, and once Tottenham scores, we are unable to change things around because of Hoots lack of plan B, and lack of expansive substitutions. For me, the guy is negative, and I said so also during the 10 game unbeaten run. Out "success" this season is more based on other teams failings to break us down than our own adventurous play. Now, you might say Hughtons only job is to keep us in the Premier for another season, and maybe he is chosing his team solely on this target (understandably), but nevertheless, he is on the verge of breaking down the feelgood factor from 3 very good previous seasons. We are being turned in to a 0-1 Birmingham team, in the good old Hughton mould. Dull, predictable, and in the end, boring.[/quote] ^^^This ^^^ We don''t create. We don''t score from open play. We have no confidence or creative spirit, and we''re strangled by a fear the manager has instilled.

Good post DDK, heartily agree.

I don''t remember many chances that Holt has missed. The fact is when balls have been coming into the box, he''s been off running the channels as per his instructions from CH. Which is fine when others are in there to finish instead but seems ridiculous when our only proven goalscorer is on the wing and we''re not scoring goals. Almost reminiscent of the situation Holt was in at Nottingham Forest when Colin Calderwood was manager there...

Absolutely Jedi. His own fear of conceding is preventing us scoring. We need at least one of those midfielders to get forward and help the forwards. We have no options around the box when attacking.

Logically it''s more likely that the team was poorly and inappropriately prepared tactically, than 11 individual players, the majority of whom have played at a high standard for us before, all had simultaneous off days. Especially when you consider that a very different starting 11 had off days in our last match. And the match before that. The constant factor in these games is the manager and the tactics.

Am I the only one who has seen Hughton regularly patrolling his technical area and holding his arm at the line where he wants his midfield to stay at? He does it every game with Tettey and Johnson and I saw him do it to Howson yesterday. This is the reason we are so slow at building attacks. He doesn''t trust our holding players to know when to attack and when to defend and so they are pinned permanently 15 yards in front of the centre halves and expected to prompt attacks with square balls to the full backs.

Totally with CUSDP on this. Even during the unbeaten run how many goals did we score from open play? We don''t create chances. We have never created chances under Hughton. On our day, if we''re lucky, our defence doesn''t give any easy goals away, our keeper makes a few good saves and we sneak a set piece. That''s the best we hope for.

"We have time to rescue that" is the key phrase in the OP''s post. We do, but where is the blind faith coming from that we WILL rescue this? Just saying "Don''t panic,it''ll be alright" isn''t really good enough. Why will it be alright? What do you base that on? It can''t be on recent performances or the reaction of the manager to those performances. Anyone can come on here and call people doom-mongerers and panic merchants, but there seems to be no basis for optimism or belief, just belief itself. If the players had that belief I''d have some confidence, but clearly they are devoid of ideas and confidence.

Following a hugely successful manager is possibly the most difficult job in football. Very few managers pull it off. Bob Paisley is the only one that springs to mind. So Chris Hughton was always going to be taking on a massive challenge. 5 mths in and we''re 13th in the league, got to the league cup q-final and had a humiliating fa cup debacle. We have had a much-heralded 10 game unbeaten streak, and beaten Arsenal, Man Utd and Spurs at home. We''ve also had two awful runs of defeats and poor results and have been thumped by Liverpool home and away, and Fulham. Chris Hughton''s remit was just to survive in the division, in a year when financially it means everything to do so. On paper then it seems like he''s performing. The reality at the moment is that we''re in freefall. We are devoid of confidence, devoid of attacking ideas, not making chances even against the likes of Luton, and not taking the few chances we do grind out. Tactically we seem constipated, pushing the same crap out every time. Players that have performed well at Premier League level before look like League 2 rejects. Everything screams for change, and everyone is increasingly frustrated by Hughton''s apparent inflexibility and inability to see the problems and plot solutions. It''s tempting to just blame Hughton and call him tactically inept and ridiculously stubborn. VERY tempting. And I''m not convinced that this isn''t the case. However, there is one possibility I will "kind of" accept at this stage. A last "get out of jail free" card that keeps me from joining the Hughton-Out brigade at the moment. Hughton''s inflexibility could be down to a lack of trust in his players, or more specifically, in Paul Lambert''s players. Perhaps he feels that his options are limited by the players we have and that he misjudged what they were capable of when he took over. He believes in his tactics and won''t throw them out just because the players can''t adjust. So January gives him a chance to bring in players who will. Players who were successful under Lambert''s open, risky style aren''t disciplined enough to play in Hughton''s more competitive top-level set up and that''s what''s killing us. He can rectify that. Again, I''m not totally convinced that''s the root of the problembut I''m willing to consider it as an option. Hughton can bring in replacements by the end of the window and if those replacements slide into his formation and we start picking up as a result, fair enough. Or if signing these players means that he''s confident enough to allow a variation in tactics because he has more players available he believes in, great. I''d even be happier than I am now if he didn''t sign anyone but at least took the tactical shackles off and rotated some of the players and formations to suit the opposition, because at least this would be an acknowledgement of the need to change. What we can''t and shouldn''t accept is the same tactics and same results for too much longer. I''m not happy at all at the moment and much of that stems from being unconvinced that Hughton has what it takes to adapt and change, or to accept that there even is a problem. He has an opportunity now to replace before the end of the window, or adapt. What we cannot do is continue to fester unchecked as we''re only headed in one direction at the moment and momentum is everything in football.

I can only think that he was determined to play as deep as possible to stop Suarez getting in behind and getting his usual hat-trick and Howson stays deeper than Wes and also doesn''t drift wide the way Wes does. Wes hasn''t been in good form recently but then to be fair, who has?

Agreed but generally we have looked far better defensively than last year, mainly due to Bassong and two holding midfielders in front of the back four. The goals have been conceded in clumps such as the two Liverpool games, Fulham, and against an exceptional Man City strike force. The reason we concede in clumps is that the heads go down and we don''t believe we can get back into matches we are losing. He has made us better defensively in my opinion, which needed to be done, but it''s so rigid and uncompromisingly turgid in progressing forward that he has built an entirely new problem of his own making, which he seems loathe to address.

When we score first, Hughton''s system works. If we''re away from home, the longer into the game we go without conceding, it looks good. However... When we concede first, we look immediately beaten. There is no belief that we will be able to score a goal. As one of the "smaller" teams in the division it''s likely that more often than not we will concede first, particularly away from home. Unfortunately we have no reaction to this situation that we often find ourselves in. We have not come from behind to win a game this season and not gained a point when we''ve conceded more than a goal. There is no puffing out of chests, rolling up of sleeves and determination to drag ourselves back in. The system doesn''t allow for that. Which isn''t to say they''re not working hard. The effort is there but they''re constricted by the system. The system only allows attacks to be built up at glacial speed with Johnno and Tettey passing sideways and back every time, and against opposition that are already winning and protecting a lead by putting bodies behind the ball we''re hitting a brick wall every time. We score VERY few goals from open play, even during the 10 game run, because we pretty much have to dribble or pass through the entire opposition team to score. Wes and Snoddy both try and do this and Holt has actually been working very hard to get involved with the short passing in the attacking third but it''s not enough to bang down the doors of a Premiership defence. It''s powder-puff. Although personally I''d want us to be more attacking and vary tactics according to opposition, at this point I''d even welcome a change to long ball as at least we''d have more chance of scoring by slinging balls up to Holty and Morison. Perhaps this is part of the reason behind the approaches for Hooper and Graham. Two big men to win headers and a consummate finisher to win whatever falls down or gets flicked on? It feels like Hughton has solved half of a problem from last season but has no idea how to solve the rest. He''s an intelligent, experienced coach so I can''t believe he can''t see what needs to be done, but if he does know he''s keeping it to himself so far.

Howson seems to swing between brilliant and anonymous. He''s got all the technical skills you need to e a top player though. Great passer, good tackler, comfortable on the ball, decent engine. I disagree with his assessment that his best position is off the striker though. He''s a decent all round centre midfielder. I think he''d have had a ball on the right side of a Lambert diamond. In the system that we have now, and seemingly will for the next however many years Hughton is in charge, I think he''s better in one of the holding roles than the Triquestra.

Good thread for brief catharsis. I''d ask: 1) What is it that you''re seeing in this formation that nobody else is seeing? 2) When we''re already two-nil down are you sticking with the formation because you think it''s likely to stop us conceding more or because you genuinely think it''s giving us the best opportunity to get back in the game and score at least three? 3) What would David Fox have to do to get a game? Is he simply a player you don''t rate and will therefore never pick regardless of how well he''s played in the past or on the rare occasions he gets a few minutes of game time?

It will be interesting if we do sign him, what Hughton does. I can''t see him abandoning his beloved system so either Holt or Graham will be spending time on the bench.

Surman''s pace is his Achilles heel but to be fair, if he was quick and as good on the ball as he can be, he wouldn''t be playing for us. Surman''s a great option for us and allows us to play different formations (or at least when we used to have more than one formation). He''s also one of those players that things tend to happen around. Plus the bonus is that Pilks has to work harder to keep his shirt now.

[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Canary02 IV"][quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Canary02 IV"]"Whatever you do, or attempt to do, be bold. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it". - Unknown. This for me sums up why Lambert would have got us the points today and why Hughton may never do so in the same situation.[/quote]This is the same Paul Lambert whose team lost at home to Southampton today?[/quote] You''re right. The result at Villa Park today means that everything about Paul Lambert is forever etched in failure. If only they''d won today he''d have been the greatest manager in the history of football, not the worst, as he obviously is now.[/quote]A mature and helpful response. Well done.[/quote] Exactly my thoughts r.e. your original post. Glad you understood.