ged in the onion bag

I absolutely agree, but where does that leave Gibbs. We could have tried him there properly and I don’t see him playing anywhere else.

I was thinking exactly the same…. Ill-informed nonsense post! You must try harder!

If that’s the case, he could at least tell Wagner to start progressing Gibbs as an CDM and Warner.

Still none the wiser whether he’s tactically aware or inept, seems he’s got some qualities and deficient in others and overall not good enough but he’s achieving what I’d expect with this squad… I.e mid-table. Suspect we will all know the quality of the manager and this team in a few weeks when we play some decent teams. That’s why I’d rather we got Gibbs and Warner in the team to give them a chance to develop so we might have something better next season. What’s the point of Batth, Duffy, Hanley and Gibson in the long-term right now?

My problem with the manager and club right now is that we’re going to finish somewhere in the middle, which seems reasonable with this squad but we won’t have developed (or attempted to) a potential future CDM in Gibbs and CB in Warner. On the face of it Wagner is probably achieving a reasonable league position right now but… unquestionably this recent run of results is due to a fortunate set of fixtures against bottom teams or teams out of form and we weren’t convincing either. The next games will likely expose this team again. We might be near the playoffs but there are 7 other teams within a win of them also.

So keeping the wide player on to help prevent crosses may have helped I imagine.

The player that such a situation would not benefit is Nunez… it’s understandable to take off one offensive player for a defensive option but two I felt was foolish not only for the negative message but the alien team dynamic. Nunez relies on options to be at his best, to create…. By taking off Barnes and Rowe (and with Sainz already off), what’s the point of Nunez. It seemed a very strange decision and probably just needed Gibbs in for Nunez to screen the defence. It was 0-0, where was the thought to at least give us a competitive chance if we did concede? Far too negative. Would we really do much worse by developing Gibbs and Warner in this team?

In my view it all went wrong signing kids for the EPL who weren’t ready.

No, this was the Smith / Wagner season, and yes he did graft. Your argument was that he was disinterested which I would completely refute. His output in terms of goals and assists is nothing to do with whether he was interested or not, and quite frankly Smith had the team performing dysfunctionally. No one was really productive.

Season’s greetings to all, have a good one! 🎄⚽️🎄⚽️

Did he really…. I recall he ran his socks off in his final season when he played and was (by some distance) our best presser of the ball…. He put the effort in, the team didn’t function well and the manager kept leaving him out.

Merry Christmas to you too Don.... Such an intriguing piece and so well articulated it was worth the read in any event. What's it all mean though? Football is, of course, much more complicated, its not the simple game my old man said it could be. This is the proverbial conundrum of all clubs. We all want points, only three can gain enough for promotion, 3 for relegation.... how do NCFC achieve the former? Your right, it does rely on decisions in the boardroom, who carries out recruitment, how much to spend, how do we develop, how can we compete, improve, develop a team.. etc.... and over what kind of period... Farke, for example, was given the time and patience to develop and acquiring points wasn't all so important during those seasons. He probably achieved the aims too quickly, another year and we may well be a different club right now (and Leeds might not be thumping Ipswich right now!). As far as I can see, we've asked (probably expected) the managers since to acquire sufficient points at all costs; unrealistic expectation trumping squad capability. I agree and have said on many occasions on here, this board has 'lost its way' but right now it needs 'a man with a plan' in charge of the team, then patience and time from the club and the fans. Happy Christmas all.

Grew up in Midlands and played football against Leamington, Racing Warwick and Nuneaton Borough! Good times… Southam sounds familiar too! Good to know there’s plenty of green and yellow about the area!

I'm glad to hear your thoughts here and yes, I do know of Shakpoke, he ended up at West Brom and my wife's a Villa fan. I would have no problem with loans if there was a point and there would be in the EPL. At the moment, we don't need to go up, we need to develop, I want to see Gibbs played and in his better position, Warner played over any of the CB's we have, McCallum over Giannoulis, Sainz and Rowe over Hernandez, Fassnacht (when it suits over Barnes too) and I'd like to see our coaches getting more from these younger players. When they are doing that, then we would have a bigger pool of capable players and no need to get loans in. We don't need a loan at CB, we need players for CDM but then I can't see the point of a loan, give Gibbs a go. We need to be looking for a playmaker behind the forward, Barnes isn't that, but again, whats the point of a loan, Barnes, Sainz, Rowe can do that in the interim. Matos and the Gunn situation is still not typical, that common and I am not sure if this can be addressed with how the contracts are set up... but still there is significantly more numbers who do stick around as i listed. One of our failings is that we said as part of the process, when they outgrow us, they can go. We shouldn't be giving out those messages, we should be aspiring for continuous improvement, to do better, gain momentum and consequently keep them on the journey. Farke got us on that route, we just didn't learn the right lessons in my opinion. So while I accept that loans can work, what's the point of them in our situation because we aren't likely to go up or get relegated and we shouldn't aspire to promotion right now until we are in a stronger position for all the reasons I've mentioned in the past.

Good to hear. It does all sound pretty positive with these lads at the moment.

I appreciate your points here and like the idea of 7th too.... but there are issues with promotions... We need to be competitive. These EPL experiences do serious damage to confidence and moral, they really do, players come back beaten up, realising how vast that gap is and can lose desire... it happens. Not sure an unsupported group of Rowe, Sara, Gunn etc..would cope as the experienced group look old and tired and slow to me, that won't be any use or support. Of course, the younger ones are less likely to come through, we can't develop in the EPL. We need a squad of capability first and a team that is robust defensively.... the only way that happens is with a change of personnel as this lot aren't good enough. We need better team shape and CDM's to protect the defence. I still don't see how the EPL pot or the parachute money has helped us. Can anyone explain what good its done us say since the last promotion? Chances are, we won't win the play-offs so why not give opportunity to players like Gibbs, Warner, Sainz, a proper run of games and look for hungry, athletic players to develop further in January. I like it when we go our own way.... at the minute we are just existing like every other Championship club, with little planning, just hoping more than anything that it works out for us rather than someone else. We had our time, chances are (especially with our recruitment performance) other teams will have theirs now.

Where is the £100mm - £150m we received for the last two EPL seasons right now? Where is the squad we bought with it? Where is the progress? Lets see if this whole explanation can register or will you just pick one little titbit again and run with that ignoring the rest. What are you talking about.... I'm perfectly aware of how football works, i have coaching qualification and football experiences that very few on here will have. I know how opportunity and trust and game time can help develop youngsters and can see how badly we have performed in lots of ways in this area (and how well we've performed too) and I am quite convinced that development and strategy will serve us much better in terms of relationship between fans and the club, finances and also in terms of potential for success in the future. Whats your plan then, answer the questions i raised, where is that money from EACH of the two promotions, where is the team, the progress. How do we break from the same routine as everyone else? Lets face it, each Championship club has the same aspiration right now, some are in less debt than us and some much more difficult to beat than us thus more likely to give the EPL a crack than we have. We are in no different situation right now so essentially just in the lottery of hoping for something to click. Law of averages suggests its not our turn for quite a while. I'd rather we tried a different approach and tried to develop our own, give them contracts, a good working environment and opportunity, if they are good enough, we have better players, if they leave we receive money for them... .how much do you reckon we will get for Batth in January? Your response above is pretty ill-considered in my view but please feel free to justify it or articulate why my suggestions are so flawed with reason rather than one off, non-typical examples. You quote Matos, I reply with Lewis, Aarons, Godfrey, Buendia, Maddison, no doubt Sara and Rowe will follow, all players brought in with progress and development in mind.

At CB, there's this lad at Norwich City called Jaden Warner..... might be worth trying to loan him in and see if he can help us out till we can get the old boys back in for more goal fests! Another one we could get is Liam Gibbs, he might be worth a crack at CDM, you never know, might be better than any other loanee. A few games and he might start to develop. Otherwise, how about letting him go too! We aren't going down, may as well develop now. Apart from that I'd replace the recruitment team before looking for outside options.

You're not reading the whole thread or thinking this through are you. Where is the £100mm - £150m we received for the last two EPL seasons right now? Where is the squad we bought with it? Where is the progress? It all gets spent very quickly on just trying to compete, paying wages, signing average Joe's, then it leaves you in a right financial mess when the leagues spat you back out the other end. Tell me, what do you think will happen then.... like to mention a little matter of our own little debt that also needs servicing. Exactly how would we compete. Who at that club can perform the miracles required. You all think promotion is the answer. It's not, unless we have another £200mm to add to the pot but we don't. Please feel free to justify your comment with something valid, I'm only basing my opinion on the evidence before and ahead of us... there's no massive financial benefactor on the horizon. Remember how toxic this forum was last time. Short memories, it only took 5 games, after Watford crushed us at home, the season was evidently over. We need some way to compete in that league or it's going to be a mess again. Otherwise, we are just existing the same as the rest of the wannabe pretenders in the Championship, they all want to go up and like Luton did and Huddersfield nearly did the year before, its very possible for it to be any one of the teams, even Ipswich are showing that you can come up and have a chance at promotion. The gap is massive, even £150m is not enough. And what would this recruitment team do with £150m? I dread to think. Convince me otherwise, please. A plan or a whim?

I know, the rest is history. We didn’t replace him, couldn’t replace him, we suffered a season of torture and have nothing to show for it, a poorer squad and no money! What’s not to love about that! How have the last two promotions sustained us? What’s your point? We need money to sustain that kind of approach. We don’t have it so development is the best way. You can’t do that with too many hackneyed old journeymen, by chasing promotion or filling spots in the team with loans. It needs a plan, time, patience, bravery and astute staff making the right calls. It needs a team that never has its belly tickled. Surely that’s the priority right now.

Where do I suggest that? In my view one loan is too many in our situation in the Championship and they are not guaranteed to be useful either. I don’t think you want a team of them. We disagree but at least I explain why. If we got promoted then I would agree loans are necessary but only experienced ones. Kids with no EPL experience are no good to us which is where we kept looking! Would it be different? Gibbs should be in the team at CDM, Warner should be in the squad too. I’m not predictable, just consistent, practical and and clear as to why? You could always try to argue a case to convince me otherwise but no one has come up with any ideas or evidence to suggest loans actually help us in the Championship. Ramsey for example, played well in some games but what was the point? Skipp, left us with a massive hole in midfield… Hayden, Marquinhos!

It’s a figure of speech! Derrr! We were in the Premier League and there has been a gradual decline ever since that has not been arrested! The squad value has dropped significantly, we are conceding more goals, more regularly and the league position keeps dropping. Of course, it’s in decline, we bought in slower, older players with less desire. You tell me how it’s not in decline? As for our form, it’s not been convincing, despite the wins as you suggest. Since getting beaten by Swansea then demolished by Blackburn at home, we’ve played 2 of the bottom 3, Preston in free fall (form 20th), Bristol City and Cardiff where by all accounts we didn’t deserve to win. We could just as easily have lost those games. Of course, we actually lost at Watford (who were then about 15th or 16th) with another awful performance. I don’t want us to lose, I want us to be competitive. It just isn’t working very well is it. To be competitive, we need to stop conceding goals. This group doesn’t have the personnel or the collective capability to do that. They don’t have ‘natural’ defenders with any pace or CDMs or a team set up to be difficult to score against. Fact is chasing the top-six or promotion is preventing development of players and a playing style that might make us competitive. Don’t be fooled by this run, this squad isn’t very good.

How many championship forums have fans that are quoting that same statement? I imagine at least half. Only 6 can be. Ours doesn’t have a particularly good forward at this level, no CDM, its got the second worse defence by stats, it’s ageing and unbalanced. Is it really top-six? How, why is it better than say Sunderland, Blackburn, Watford, Coventry or Middlesbrough?

This is just fanciful garbage. You never answer any of the facts I point out and don’t take account of the truth of ‘our’ particular situation, I.e, squad not great, recruitment isn’t clever and we have no money. I recognise that for example, Notts Forest got promoted using the loan system and it worked for them. Loans can be very useful. I am not blind to it. I recognise other teams use loans but it’s all temporary and we need to create a squad of quality and depth so we can compete without money, that’s where we’re at right now. However, and this is the crux where your argument fails, other teams like Forest go up and spend lots of money, £300m…. Burnley just spent the best part of £80m and even that’s not really helping them is it. How much do you think we will spend if we go up? Skipp proved it, we were never ever going to be able to buy him but we couldn’t replace him. But he sure meant we didn’t develop someone for that CDM position did we. Other clubs could buy him or a replacement. It’s not like we are creating a team that’s ‘a pain in the backside to play against, that’s hard to beat first and foremost is it? That’s the starting point for progress, not the EPL fortune. What happened to the last two fortunes and parachute payments, where is it all? Your deluded, either that or please explain how your plan using loans is going to succeed except in the short-term, because you’ve offered absolutely nothing reasonable or feasible in this debate apart from comparison to ‘other clubs’ who have either got backing or are stagnating without a plan like we now are. Then of course you have to add the likelihood of this recruitment team performing wonders in the market and based on the evidence before us, that’s unlikely, or do you know something I don’t? Ramsey played reasonably well a youngster but exactly what benefit did he bring us last season? If loans did improve us and got us promoted, based on all the evidence, the quality of this squad, the fact we concede so many goals, the lack of creativity, the recent recruitment, the finances, what would your expectations be for promotion, how will we compete, how quickly would you get on the managers back for not performing miracles? Would you be happy to see us get thumped week in and out. How would we avoid that scenario? Why would this time be different to the last two (especially since the team and the manager are significantly inferior right now. Of course we are unlikely to go up, with or without loans but either way in your plan, I can only see it ignores development and long-term progress. Convince me otherwise with rational argument. By the way, Hayden may have been a loan to buy, but (and I said it at the time we signed him) he was never the answer in any circumstance. That’s a recruitment failing, another one of the many. To my knowledge we still have the same staff working there, they just have a new boss. A boss that’s young, inexperienced and yet to prove himself. I hope he does prove himself but he’s got one hell of a job on his hands.

Are you seriously using a 7 game run of games against poor sides in the main and with unconvincing performances as your barometer?