ged in the onion bag

Just some observations... It ws obvious how deep we dropped immediately. They were on the ropes it seemed a second was likely.... We didn't just drop deep, we went really narrow too, thats not how to defend for 60 odd minutes. You still need to stop crosses, something we didn't even try to do, they had too much time and room - no pressure on the ball at all. If ever there was a team asking to be beaten, that was us last night.... We were never going to survive for 60 minutes defending that deep and narrow, so why sit back like that. Have a go! Sainz plays a position where that player is usually sacrificed following a red, so it didn't really change the dynamic that much. It shouldn't have rather. We have an elderly squad.... I mean 'experienced'! Not much of that on show from Hanley, Gibson, McLean and Barnes etc...IMO. Sargent was moved to a position which made him pretty redundant (and so he was).... should have stayed up top and moved Barnes or changed Barnes for Welch or Gibbs. .... carried on pressing high up and asked the forward pressers to run themselves into the ground until 65-70 mins then change them but keep making it hard for Middlesboro to play. We made it so easy. Nunez's game doesn't suit our situation in that game... much better to put Gibbs in that central role second half. Nunez needs forward movement, time on the ball etc... he was never going to have options and he's not a strong battling type player, shouldn't have come on, not a criticism of him though . Wagner, didn't understand what on earth was going down on that pitch. Rabbit in the headlights. He was fully responsible for the manner of that defeat. Clearly couldn't see what was happening or had no clue how to address it... No direction or adequate instruction, clueless tactically. Disappointing. Promotion chase, really!

I suspect he was expecting more involvement than what he’s getting. Now if he’s happy sitting on a 5yr contract and doesn’t have much ambition beyond the money, then we have another problem! Also, Wagner was fire-fighting last season having taken over from Smith. I don’t expect he is happy though. I imagine he’s gutted that this manager hasn’t got belief in him or isn’t brave enough to throw him in his preferred position. Let’s face it, Wagner has tried very little to change the central midfield deficiencies. Your comment seems very simplistic. He needs to be progressing now, instead he’s regressing and we need a CDM. If he’s got ambition, he needs to get away if he can because he’s not getting a chance at CDM with Wagner.

I’m more concerned about Liam Gibbs right now. Talented lad played out of position and not given a proper go in his preferred position, (a position the team has no proper personnel for), his confidence and youthful exuberance completely shattered by this manager who seems to have no interest in bringing him through. Let’s not forget this lad did plenty enough for everyone to be quite excited when he came through initially. He needs to get away for his own sake. To not get a look in again last night, he must be wondering what’s gorn on!

Wonder what Gibbs thinks of Wagner. hmmm!

I'm sorry but that response really suggests you are quite silly (sorry but its a ridiculous statement) you've probably spent too much time on social media! It doesn't suggest anything about my views on Wagner, just purely my opinion on Mourinho. Mourinho couldn't manage this team, he needs thugs, he needs money, he needs the spotlight for his ego. Norwich City aren't providing any of that. Wagner is useless in my view. He's literally destroyed Liam Gibbs' potential right in front of us, played him out of position, damaged his confidence and exhuberance. The lad needs to get away as fast as possible for his own sake. I want change but Mourinho, not ever!

He's a busted flush... no thanks.

Forward thinking... be careful, not many on here see beyond the next match unless it's mention of promotion! For what its worth, I totally agree, its the only way for us to prosper. Very few see it, but some are finally coming around to the realisation now.

Right now, we don't need a best team, we need a capable developing team for next season The best capable teams in my opinion is Gunn Stacey Hanley / Duffy Warner McCallum Gibbs Rowe Sara Nunez Sainz Sargent Might even try Gunn Warner Hanley / Duffy McLean Gibbs Stacey McCallum Rowe Sara Nunez / Sainz (but play Nunez deeper and central) Sargent

...a tad worried about him at CM though after last night.... where was he for their goal, think he might of gone home when the Hull fans mass exited after Faasnacht netted. Seriously though, just watch his reaction in the moments before the Hull guy scored. Where's he going? That's not a CDM in any shape or form... check out Watford's first goal also, where's he going there? He's still running away from the ball, instead of closing down the space.

You’re just refusing to read the responses rationally. With your simplistic logic, if Leeds beat Norwich and West Brom beat Leeds, there’s no chance on earth that Norwich beat West Brom. It doesn’t work like that.

Not saying Smith was any good there but he did make us more defensive as the few clean sheets showed, think Burnley, Brighton etc…. Gradually the team lost more and more confidence but that was inevitable whoever was in charge. You have to take account of all the factors and what generally happens in such circumstances. Hope and expectation during those early games gradually fades and gets replaced by frustration, lack of desire / care and senses of inevitability. You can’t compare results in isolation. Smith also had a period of many injuries if I recall. But you’re just picking up on one point rather than considering the context of the whole post. What’s the point of that. Like I said, I prefer Farke, he was brilliant, it wasn’t his fault the squad he had but if he wasn’t sacked after Brentford, it would have happened soon after that anyway. Webber sent him back to war without a gun!

Firstly, I wish we still had Farke, love the guy, but…. What Smith did was make us more difficult to beat whereas Farke had no attacking threat and we were exposed defensively. Farke tried to pass out from the back at the Etihad for example. He had a squad incapable of playing his style in the EPL. One win against Brentford didn’t change anything. Smith probably got us more points than Farke would have. Remember, before Brentford, most were asking for his head. Yes Webber was at fault but this forum was in uproar and most blamed Farke’s tactics and general approach! ‘We expected to lose that game etc…’ We did him a favour letting him go as it would have got intolerable and that would not have been fair on him. At some point that season he would have gone and it wouldn’t have been pleasant, he’d have lost all the appreciation we had for him.

For me it was the failure to recognise how important CDM's are in football nowadays..... followed by those two instances.

What do you think! No point in asking a question and not giving your own opinion. The simple and obvious answer is not a chance in hell. Love the guy but not even Pep could polish the turd of a squad he was left with. No Emi, No Skipp and generally a school playground full of kids at Colney. EDIT, 62% said yes! Wow, fans really have short memories and rose tinted glasses.

Ah, the good ol' days before DATA! Whatever we've got now, it ain't worked for a while.

By scouts, do you mean a couple of local unemployed computer geeks who spen their day on Football Manager?

Do you lot never learn! What is the point of a loan player right now? We strive for play-offs, we don't develop, we compete for play-offs with another 10 plus teams (our chances more unlikely) and we don't develop, we loan someone so one of our own doesn't develop, and if we get promoted by some freak chance, we'll get annihilated, embarrassed and come back down having spent all the EPL money trying to somehow compete (like we did the previous times).... and we don't develop. We need to get Gibbs, Warner and perhaps others from the U23s in the team / squad and find some gems to actually sign, not loan. A young CDM perhaps, a young playmaker... they are about no doubt, the worlds a big place with lots of players to scout... which brings us back to the fundamental problem. We couldn't trust our recruitment to identify a decent player in the first place so how about we focus all our transfer activity on a new recruitment team first! Alternatively, we can carry on blindly with no plan, prospects and hope and continue the regression. Whilst promotion is the aim, this club is only getting further away from it.

Fortunately 2.5 yrs is not tolerable, think we are near the end game with that. Fans will eventually rebel as we decline. Delia and Michael won’t be in place much longer. It’s such a shame, I really supported them for a long time, but it’s now clear they are in the cul de sac. Unfortunately, there’s literally nothing evident at the club to demonstrate hope at the moment. Hopefully, Knapper will show us the way. I’m not hopeful and Attanasio has no experience in football so their level of involvement and expertise remains unknown. Another manager is not going to chance the momentum on its own.

If it doesn't change, it stays the same............... no it doesn't it regresses! Say no more! Doesn't this thread all sound familiar (December 22). It will keep regressing without proper honesty and re-assessment of where we actually are and finally, massive change throughout our club. To me, it was obvious then, it's still obvious now, yet that lot in charge are so blinded, so out of touch, so incompetent. What a shame they've lost their way so dramatically they just 'can't see the wood for the trees'. Sad to see. OTBC!

... and it'll ony get worse while the aim remains getting promoted. Its unrealistic and prevents develpment of a team capable of competing properly.

Oh come on, yet another poster who forms opinion based on the consensus of comments on here rather than proper understanding of the game! Gibbs had potential as a CDM, perhaps not an EPL as he’s a little lightweight and not as athletic as the best ones, but still is more naturally suited to that CDM role. He’s been played out of position, and only very occasionally, in a team with no clear patterns of play, an alien position and understandable if his confidence is affected. it’s no wonder he’s ‘not good enough’ as you suggest without appreciating his circumstances. As for McLean, I don’t hate him, I want us to be competitive and the fact is, whilst he’s playing CDM in this team, we will never be competitive. Buendia and Skipp aren’t in this team remember! I can recognise he appears one of our better players right now in some ways but most fans don’t realise his natural reaction is to move with a player he’s marking rather than react to danger so he might have a range of passing but he can’t screen the defence and close down when it’s necessary. It’s obvious that’s missing from our team though. As for his passing, he doesn’t control game tempo, he doesn’t make players around him better because it’s quick play delivering to colleagues in space and his recent range of long passing is due to him dropping deeper and thus having more room and time on the ball to pick and deliver these passes. It’s an indictment on the team that he’s one of our better performers. I just don’t see the point of him! Would rather we gave that role to Gibbs for a run of games and over time we might have better balance. McLean can fight for a place where he might be better, that said, I think Sara and Nunez would win that battle.

If we do get through, we won’t get pummelled by Liverpools U18s. Beaten yes, but not pummelled!

I’d have Gibbs in CDM ahead of McLean (not one of the mercenaries I know) and Warner in too, as they will never be good enough without games and experience. If we have to accommodate McLean elsewhere for the time being, possibly in a 3 at the back or further forward but not screening the defence. We’re not going up, we’re stagnant, seemingly regressing even, so need change asap and it would be foolish to wait until the seasons over whilst everyone gets more and more frustrated.

But his credibility would be shot, so where would he, the club and we go from there?

Binner! 🤣