Thorpe Stephen

Lol - this gets more stupid by the second. How come posts like this dont get pulled???? At least it raises a smile for some I guess

Just hate ITV fullstop - worst mainstream channel (4 and 5 passed ITV many years ago) and worse than most of the main (ish) Sky channels (Sky 1, Virgin, Dave, etc etc) and even worse than ITV 2, 3 and 4. Harry Hill''s TV Burp is the only half good thing on and that is showing clips of other channels shows with a half decent comedians comments. Just hope that ITV never get the rights to any football in the future. (IMO)

Of course if Paulo already knows that the other stockbrokers in Norwich do not deal in Norwich shares due to previous companies decision then fine - obv. Paulo''s employer still deals in NCFC shares - but it is possible that one of the other stockbrokers has now changed it mind in dealing in the shares - but that is not a suspension in trading just a companies decision to not transact in them anymore.

Just to confirm any stockbroker can deal in Norwich shares.......... when I used to work for a stockbrokers it was more of a case if someone wanted to sell NCFC shares then the stockbroker would look to find someone who would want to buy them......as there is not really a liquid market but the stockbrokers would have a record of potentially intrested people (obv not Peter Cullums of this world and obv not for investment purposes) I can guess the company that Paulo works for etc but different stockbrokers/sharedealing services may take different views. EG. Barrett & Cooke may be happy to continue finding buyers for someone who wants to sell.....Charles Stanley I would guess probably would not be intrested full stop as it is probably to much hassle and they are not as locally orientated as B&C and N&P - someone like N&P (who may not want to deal in NCFC shares now anyway as they have moved over recent years just to trading in run of the mill stuff) may well have changed their mind as they may think it is to much "hassle"....... If anyone really wants to find out just phone them up and ask them if they will deal in your NCFC shares for them

Prob a Binner.... I am sure PC like everyone else can ignore the rubbish on these boards from people who do not understand business or his proposal back in the summer.

Sensible from our point of view that it is a loan move too. EG. Say he is worth 750k-1M - sensible for us to see how his injury holds up with a loan deal and the look at again in Jan - works both ways for Celtic too - we can both assess him and have a view what his true value is to them and us.

6 foot 3 inch and good in the air and good at link up play - fits the big target man image IMO. Probably not the one who can bash other players out of the way as much - but has got a bit of skill (just see the goal for Derby against Stoke on Youtube) 15-20 goals possibly - wonder why he dried up for Saints a bit - might say more about Southampton than Rasiak though.

Best - Millenium Worst - Selhurst Park by a mile what a sad mess of a ground - suits the team though. Grimsby was bad too - not able to see the goal from where I was - but no mention of restricted view - some weird way how they converted the stand from terracing i believe. Best fans - Norwich :-) Worst Fans - Ipswich (for obv reasons), Sheff U, Wolves, Derby (basically most midland clubs seem to have a largely than normal idiot fan base)

I dont want to keep on saying this but it needs to be rammed home it seems. Club worth £16m in assetts - Delia owns £9m (56%) - Other investors own £7m (44%) Club gains an extra investment of £20m Club now worth £36M in assetts - PC owns £20m (55%), Delia owns £9m (25%) others own £7m (19%) (OK dont point out this does not add up to 100% - rounding etc) The BIG BIG difference between PC £20m and Delia £9m and yours and my £7m is that the £20m is in cash and the rest is in fixed assets.........funny enough in the current climate the cash of £20m is probably worth more on future forecase £ to £ than the assets as most of the club assets are tied up in land, building which have decreasing value at the mo - we have very little assets which may increase in value (errrr - possibly Robert Eagle might be worth a fiver in ten years time if we are lucky!)

[quote user="KeelansGlove"] for me there are only two questions I want the answers to to understand this whole issue 1) Was Delia prepared to retain some shareholding in the club if Cullum came in, he made it clear he did not want to get rid of her and obviously understands the value of brand Delia to the football club. 2) Was Cullum prepared to negotiate at all on the concept of allowing Delia to sell a percentage of her shares. I can understand in either of these cases the other party would have a valid reason to walk away. [/quote] Good Questions! But a bit black and white - i am not sure we are talking percentages (and if so then it could be what % rather than 0% or 100%) e.g. I am sure Cullum would be happy to buy 1% of Delia shares - or 2% - but 30%, 50%, 60% etc???? when he does not want to buy Delia out by the looks of it and I am sure Delia would be happy to have a 1% holding but 30% etc etc again.

[quote user="milan marcus"] How is a minority stake in a football club worthless? I am sure the orginal minority investors in Google feel their shares are worthless. The facts I beleive are that at 49% the current shareholders stake in the club is worth far more than owning 100% of a club that cannot compete for a place in the Prem.  I think we all think we have a fair chance for a Premiership place with a £20 million investment.  What is a 49% share worth in a Premership club? Lets be very clear Delia has let bug of football get the better of her and wants control for controls sake.  This is clearly not aligned to the values of the fans in the stands and therefore when a few results go against us it will become very messy. [/quote] That is where it is very very difficult for Delia - it will become very messy when (not if IMO) results go against us. 9M of a club worth 16M in the Champ versus 9m (but reduced due to not being a majority) (25%) of a club worth £36m in the Champ - Delia current delima. Against a potential 25% stake in premier league club worth ?????????? - hard to say. If the prem league club is worth more than £36m (which it will be) then she is on to a winner.........IMO - but as other have said what is a minority stake in a football club really worth - Delia and the current regime have milked minority shareholders knowing that the voting(power) rights of the shares are not worth anything but happy to take the cash and playing on supporters loyality (probably not delibrately but this is what has happened)......not wanting someone else to be the majority shareholder just underlines the fact that she(and MWJ) think minority shareholders are only there to provide funds - not have a say in the football club. How can she expect investment when she is basically saying anyone who invests (who naturally will want to become a shareholder) has no say whatsoever on how that money is spent as she will not give up her majority and invest in the football club on the same terms she wants others to invest. Delia time is limited IMO - tick tock tick tock. However, in an ideal world I would love her to stay as an investor - but at the end of the day is what she doing anything different to what Chase did at the end of his time as Chairman(Owner/Shareholder) - Chase had the decency to go eventually...... (but only after fan pressure - lets hope Delia going is more amicable and she has a say as an investor - but not the majority shareholder in taking the club forward)  

So basically where there is a will there is a way (which is normally true of most things)...... No will from the Majority Shareholder at the moment so no way!!!!!

[quote user="T"]I think the 30% rule applies to related parties as well. [/quote] I am not 100% sure on that either way - but if true how come Michael and Delia have not had to make an offer to buy everyones shares at some point in the past as they clearly toghether have broked the 30% ruling. I cant remember any offer??!? Unless of course it is the other way around - e.g. everyone shares were purchased from M&D - but then surely any increase of M&D holding (Which has happened since more shares were in circulation to minor shareholders) did not trigger an offer to buy the rest. Not sure on that one.

Not sure a Put/Call option would work here - I know where you are coming from with regards to traded shares but how would this work when Norwich shares are not traded - I dont know. E.G. The Put option would need to be agreed by Delia/Cullim of a price she/he will be willing to sell/buy at - but if a price can be agreed for an option why not a price for a takeover. We could simply say Assets/Divided by number of shares is market price (e.g. £30) and if the assets go down and the share price goes below £25 then Delia has the right to action PUT option at circa £28 or something. But simply - I just cant seen Delia, Michael or PC agreeing to this. It is basically moving back to wanting a complete buyout which is not PC aim.

[quote user="T"] Its nice to see some very sensible reasoned comments on here. I think what PC wanted could be done by way of a new share allocation but the key point is that a minority interest in a football club without control has very limited value as it would be difficult to sell as who would want to buy a minority interest - not PC for one. We would all like to see a richer investor but the reported current PC offer was a little cheeky to say the least but I do not blame him for trying his luck or the current shareholder effectively telling him what to do as most people would with such an offer. [/quote] The real issue I have with this is that Delia/MWJ/The Board are looking for investment - persumably a minority investment so they remain majority shareholders - but how do they expect to obtain investment when they are basically saying that a minority shareholder is not worth the money that you pay for it (OK for lots of us we know this when we invested in the club on previous issues - but I assume they are looking for serious investors here.) - e.g. they are happy to have minority investors paying £30 (£25) per share but they are not happy being a minority investor as they dont think £30 (£25) per share is a true value for a minority holding.

[quote user="Empty Mirror"] For goodness sake.  Mr Cullum can''t simply buy more shares for his £20 million because the club does not have sufficient unallocated (but issued) shares.    Yes, any company can issue more shares, in accordance with the provisions of the Companies Act, but that route would involve a different set of problems.  Repeating over and over again that this is what Mr Cullum meant won''t change the facts. [/quote] The allocation of more shares is not a major obstacle. Pass an Ordinary Resolution and use Form 88(2). The passing of the resolution is obv the area we there may be probs due to agreement being required by shareholders (Majority) Correct afaik he has made no offer for Delia shares because he wants her to stay on the board as an investor. Intresting I dont know if by the issue of more shares (which in the case would be over 50% of the future value of the club) would mean that it triggers the necessity to offer to buy the rest of the shares - however, just like Delia and MWJ, PC could use family members to keep there holdings below the 30% odd threshold individually.    

Further reply from Towergate recieved today.. Gist of email. PC wanted to invest money not buy out Delia - Diluted shareholding not what the current board wants. (For example £9m out of £16m business is better than £9m out of a £36m business for them - my take) Dont want to upset pre-season preps. Respects job Delia and MWJ have done. Fingers crossed for new season. So my take - at the end of the day we now need to get behind the club like PC has done as supporters now not to try and make a deal which cant happen get in the way.

I think we can rule out Ameobi - Roeder basically saying he is dealing in a smaller market (in terms of value)

[quote user="ncfclad"]By the fact that Neil Doncaster has answered my email at 5am this morning. Up very early today.[/quote] Did he reply saying why we could not come to an arrangement with Cullum??

[quote user="milan marcus"] The logic of the above suggests Delia has let the greed and power of football get to her head - she wants control for contols sake That is why I feel betrayed I loved Delia and rate Doncaster however something has gone very wrong and the least we deserve is a detailed explanation of what happened.  No other clubs fans would take losing £20 million like we have however if the results go wrong then I feel the current board will been in very deep trouble. [/quote] Ditto and unfortunately I cant see us being competitive and we are likely for a very messy few months which could ruin our season :-( Bigger Gamble for Delia is to stay as we are IMO - but perhaps they are happy with the Status quo of occasionally having the chance of promotion if things fall in place, occasionally have the chance of relegation if things dont fall in place - but as likely as not be a mid table championship side for seasons and seasons to come.

Sorry - little to drink with Sunday lunch. I only read Norwich Sign Bell-End.

Bu'' Smiff don wanna bee a likkle fis'' ina big pon''. and don wanna lose control boi.

[quote user="T"] Mathmatically the value of the shares should not go down but commercially the value does - normally you have to pay 30% premium for shares if you are taking over control of a business. For a  football teams a minority has less value than other businesses as there are no cash returns for the shareholder so all the value is in owning/controlling the football club. PC knows and understands this which is why he insisted on control. Majority ownership of a football club does have a market value but a minority interest potentially has very little value if any. i.e. someone may be willing to be 9m for a majority interest but nothing for a minority interest. That is why the control issue is so importnat for PC and the existing shareholders.  [/quote] If so the only way Delia will be happy to lose Majority shareholding is to have her shares converted back to cash?? at the value of £9m (ish) - hmmmz a bit contrary to what her statements have led us to believe but understandable in some respects. (Shame in other as she is holding back the club she loves (?!?!)) However, if this was published in the media then I think the majority would be on PC side - after all he will be investing £20m and Delia/MWJ would have an investment of £9m At the sametime I understand that it may be difficult for Delia to swallow - however if we are seriously encouraging investment then most investors will want to have a shareholding in the club - and Delia is basically saying we want investment but limiting it to an amount where she will still have overall control. E.g. If Delia own £9m out of the £16m value then we can only every hope to get an extra circa £3m in investment as anyone investing over this amount would result in Delia/MWJ shareholding going less than 50% (unless Delia then increases her holding further - which she has done in the past) - anyone who wants to seriously invest money in the club will basically be given the cold shoulder???? and said the only way that they can take control is by Delia getting her £9m back as she is not happy being a minority investor but is very happy for other individuals (including all of us smaller shareholders) being small investors.

[quote user="YankeeCanary"] If he meets resistance, take his offer public and make it clear to any thinking person that he is not the obstacle to taking the club forward. This would, without a shadow of a doubt, put the current majority owners in a complete state of isolation if they truly do want to hold on to the club. But, as Herb points out,  Peter Cullum has not done that. Whether the difference he would have to anti up is 10 or 20 million ( it is clearly not 36 million ) this is small change for Peter if his mission is clear. P.S: If you truly want us to move forward should your name not reflect that same kind of thinking, or do you have another favourite occupying the shirt?    [/quote] Personally I want Peter Cullum to do that - I am impatient and worried that he may not and just walk away - however, being honest I would rather he does it after we have made the signings we are planning on making - I could argue back to myselt that the £20m would make signings easier - but funds may not be able to move that quickly to take effect this transfer window even if an agreement of any sort could be made due to pressure or whatever.

[quote user="T"]I think this is what PC was proposing only I believe he mentioned he wanted two thirds for the 20m. The problem for the existing shareholders is that they are left with a significant minority interest without control which is worth significantly less. Typically a minority share is valued 30% less than a majority share but as football clubs are not profitability a minority interest would be very difficult to sell. Therefore how it could happen is as above with PC offering an option to buy out the minority when he has cashed in on Towergate.  [/quote] I guess the 2/3 is based on PC having some friendly arm wrestling over the existing value of the club which means that he values it at £10m rather than £16m - this I would have thought would not cause a major major stumbling block?!? Yes, and all the rest of us our already minor shareholders - so it is really a case of Delia accepting that she will be a minority shareholder rather than the majority - technically her holding(number of shares and value if we use this fixed £30 that likes to be quoted) does not decrease but a much larger holding of shares belongs to someone else.......if this is what is holding back the investment then shame.