Can we build a squad for prem?

[Can we build a squad for prem?]

50 minutes ago, chicken said:

It's unlikely that we will see a massive overhaul of players, saying 10+ needed is daft. That has been the case for every team going up and it rarely happens unless you have buckets of money like Forrest. I suspect five players is more likely, if we don't sell anyone and we can keep one of Giannoulis or McCallum.

Respectfully, I don't think it's daft at all to suggest we'd need 10+ players to improve the squad to the level required to at least stay in the prem.

We've struggled this season in the champs with our current squad, and that would only be worse once we're up against the likes of Man City and Arsenal, rather than Rotherham and QPR!

Our squad is barely capable as it is with a few minor injuries, and there are bound to be a number of departures from players on high wages at the end of their contracts, be this Gibson, Dimi or similar. Also, players like Duffy aren't magically going to get any younger or fitter, so whilst they may still be able to do a job at this level, put them up against top level players next season and see how quickly we drop.

Fisher isn't ready to cover for Stacey, both of McCallum and Dimi could well go along with Gibson, and are we convinced that Hanley and or Duffy are really what we need next year, so already we're arguably on 4 players just for the backline (5 if Dimi and Sam leave, unless you want McLean or Lungi there?).

Similarly in midfield, we still need that solid presence in the centre we haven't had since Tettey/Skipp, if Sara's out for any length of time it just gets worse, not to mention that Fassnacht has yet to impress, Rowe could well be gone (if he's not injured again), Barnes like Duffy isn't getting any younger or quicker, and if Sarge is out, then we're really in trouble.

You also agree with need a better backup than Long, so already we're pretty much at that 10+ players requirement, unless you somehow think we can hobble through a premier league season with half of that, depsite not even setting the world alight this year in the champs with the same players!

The squad desperately needs a refresh, the problem as rightly identified is that it probably costs more than we have available to get both the quality and quantity of replacements in to acheive this, that's the conundrum that Knapper has to untangle, and it only gets more complicated should we go up (even if it's a nice problem to have to solve in that instance).

[Can we build a squad for prem?]

11 minutes ago, Badger said:

Notice how much better Burnley did under Dyche, with far less money than they have done under Kompany. To stay up we need pragmatic tactics and for the squad and playing style to evolve over time. (Having said that, when Palace tried to evolve their playing style they had to go back to Hodgson pretty quickly!)

And therein lies the issue, if staying up consistently, means playing defensive, god awful hoofball relying on overly physical players, then I'd rather yo-yo between the prem and champs than watch that rubbish each week.

Look at Stoke under Pulis, terrible football to watch but it kept them up, when they tried to be more creative it started going downhill, and they've never recovered since.

The problem is that this 'evolution over time', is almost a myth, the only way this happens is if significant money is pumped into the side on a regular basis to deal with new players and increasingly higher wages to keep that evolution going, and that's simply not going to happen here for the forseeable future.

People point out Brentford as example of doing things on a relatively limited budget, yet despite being able to stay up for a couple of seasons, they're currently only 5 points ahead of Luton ffs, they're in a relegation battle still and already miles behind where they finished last season, so where's this evolution over time then? 3 years in the prem and yet they're worse this year than when they came up!

I'd much rather we played exciting attacking football, be this like under Stringer/Walker/Lambert/Farke and their differing approaches, then EVER go back down the Hughton route (which Wagner can be akin to at times), and if we get outplayed our outmuscled, then so be it.

You could offer me the premier league title with champions league football, but if it was acheived by parking the bus, playing dire, overly defensive dross each week whilst scraping out 1-0 wins, then you can keep it, and I'd rather we went down than watch that garbage match after match. I want to be entertained, I want to see skillful dribbling, outstanding passes, outrageous finishes and a style of play that celebrates everything great about football, not 11 thugs on a pitch hoping to score from a set piece and then putting 10 men in defence...

[Can we build a squad for prem?]

2 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Perhaps this should be on the 'stupid opinion hill' thread, but I think Adam Idah would be an asset to us in the Premier League.

As a third choice option, I wouldn't have an issue with that, but if Sarge was out for an extended period, I'd not be comfortable relying on Idah to keep us together, and would rather utilise him as an impact sub for tiring legs etc.

[Can we build a squad for prem?]

The key issue is that outside of 4-6 players with a sprinkling of promising youngsters, the whole squad needs a total refresh, which probably does include an entire backline, 1-2 central/defensive mids, better wingers to cover injuries/suspensions to Sainz & Rowe, not to mention at least 2 strikers as currently without Sarge we're screwed up front.

None of that is going to come cheap and would require a level of spending and investment that we've never seen before at the club, somewhat akin to the likes of Fulham/Forest spending 100mil + to get the genuine quality we'd need - unless Knapper has some bargains in the pipeline in the mould of Zimbo, Buendia, Madders etc who we got for very little but were excellent.

On paper, especially if we the Attansio situation gets resolved, it's somewhat doable, but even then, it's still a VERY big ask, especially as with that amount of new players coming in at once, the integration time and learning the system and tactics could mean the start to the season would be incredibly rough, and given our history of being handed pretty awful opening fixtures, it could put us on a very negative spiral right from the off.

Either way, I'm intruiged to see what Knapper's longer term plan is here, be this if we get promoted or not, but critical and decisive choices will need to be made either way.

[A Hill you would die on. Norwich City]

10 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

I think in the right set up he'd score in the Championship but he just didn't have the nous to get that half a yard of space in the PL and his finishing was often far too weak and erratic even when the ball did fall to him, he offered nothing in our build up play and didn't move like Pukki so I don't think the problem was that we didn't pass to him. I think he was much more of a Rhodes type flukey poacher than an intelligent Pukki that failed because he was misused. I look at his highlights reel and before he joined us and apart from a couple of good long range finishes that he could have scored for any team you don't get those chances in the PL even if you play for Man City. 

You've pinpointed the exact issue here though, his strength wasn't in build up play, or in being a pacy striker looking to utilise that extra half yard of space, he absolutely was more of a poacher type player, but to be able to produce anything in that role you are utterly reliant on getting quality supply that find that movement for a close range finish, instead he got virtually ZERO useful balls into his movement (which was genuinely very good at the start of his time with us), and Hughton basically asked him to play as a lone forward holding the ball up a'la Andy Carroll and their ilk - it was NEVER going to work.

Interesting that his penalty prowess is brought up, which is why it was so utterly frustrating when Snodgrass refused to let him take it against Villa and then stuffed it up completely, would have been a massive boost to RvW's confidence if we'd scored from that, and let's not forget this is the same Snodgrass who was instrumental in giving him nothing to work with in terms of supply either...

If you're going to utilise a poacher, as a team you have to accept their inherent weaknesses and play totally into their specific niche, which if you do can lead to an awful lot of goals, but on the flip side, you have to accept that they will frequently offer little more to the team than goals and be willing and able to deal with the additional workload on the rest of the side. There's a reason why this type of player has virtually died out in the modern game, and also why complete forwards like Haaland are the most valuable and sought after in football.

Andy Cole was notorious for freuqently needing numerous chances to score, but the difference was that Man Utd were willing and able to keeping providing them - we didn't...

[A Hill you would die on. Norwich City]

That RvW was a genuinely good striker, who Hughton totalled mis-used, and pretty much destroyed him as a player.

In the right system, with the correct supply (like how we focused on getting the right balls to Pukki), he'd easily have been a 15+ goal a season striker, we did the exact opposite of that, and instead asked him to play a role he was unfamiliar with and unsuited to - both physically and mentally...

[Wagner leaving in summer.]

57 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Knapper has a decision to make, perhaps he's already made it. If Wagner gets us promoted obviously he will stay and rightly so. The complication lays if we narrowly miss out on the play-offs, or get beaten in them, we don't want to waste the summer transfer window and say the first 10 games of next season and then decide to sack him. 

The lack of support Wagner got in the January transfer window despite being a club chasing the play-offs says a lot about Knapper's lack of commitment to Wagner imo.

I actually think that even if we do get promoted via the play-offs, that the decision to retain Wagner or not would truthfully come down to whether or not Knapper would be able to get in any of his preferred targets. There's been strong speculation around Cuesta and that he was waiting until the summer to consider any possible offer, part of which may even come down to what league we are in, and I genuinely believe that if the opportunity is there, Knapper will seize it, thank Wagner for his work and look to develop the squad a different way.

I'd also argue, that even if we get the promotion AND retain Wagner, the football we've seen under his tenure would get us slaughtered in the Prem, and I've seen little evidence of likely change in tactics or approach from Wagner to suggest anything otherwise, even if we got some good new players in the summer.

The players appear to be backing Wagner which is a clear point in his favour, but much like Hughton, I can't take to his overall style of play, especially when we approach games like we did against Southampton, as in the Prem we'd be outclassed by most teams, and I can't stomach watching that defensive minded dross for 90 minutes each week, give me Lambert's gung-ho mentality, give me Farkeball, give me the Norwich under Stringer or Walker, but never again stuff like Hughton, or for that matter like Wagner far too often.

It's frustrating in a way, as like with Hughton, I don't dislike the guy at all (in fact Hughton presented himself superbly and spoke extremely well), but as much as I can appreciate the man behind the manager, I need to enjoy what I'm watching, and if we can genuinely get in an exciting coach like Cuesta who could get us playing in a more convincing and attractive way, I'd rather take that gamble and thank Wagner than simply hope for the best if we don't make a change...

[Knappers First Transfer Window]

33 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

If we fluke our way to the PL, great. The money will make the transformation much easier. 

I'm not entirely sure that would be the case though Mason, on one hand we would have the far greater finances provided simply by being in the PL, but on the flip side of that, you need a much higher calibre of player alongside it which carries a equivalent cost as well - especially when in reality we need to replace a signifcant number of our starting XI to even have the vaguest chance of staying up if that happens.

We'd probably need virtually an entire back 4 as Gibson, Batth, Dimi and McCallum are likely leaving/out of contract, and Stacey desperately needs stronger cover than Fisher at that level. Hanley and Duffy are knocking on as well, and I doubt either of Warner or Tomkimson are anywhere near ready to be regular starters in the prem for that matter..

In midfield we've been crying out for a Tettey/Skipp type player, McLean isn't getting any younger and isn't as impressive in the PL as in the champs, Fassnacht has struggled to even show what's needed at this level, and in many ways Nunez still provides the conundrum of exactly what is his best role and he's yet to truly show the ability he displayed when he first arrived with any consistency since either.

Whether or not we can even keep Rowe beyond the summer is another major concern, we may have an outside chance of him staying IF we were to get promoted and offer him a vastly improved contract, but money talks, and a significant offer (especially if he decides he wants the move) puts an end to that entire conversation.

Upfront we have basically Sarge and the unproven as yet SVH (who we may not even buy) with the jury out on Idah (if he even returns from his loan) and Barnes is not what we need, which means the most expensive position to get quality in is where we arguably need it most, as another injury to Sarge leaves us in a real mess.

Not to mention that we look far weaker without Gunn in goal, so potentially another keeper to replace Long is required, as I wouldn't trust him for any extended period of time.

All of that isn't cheap, and not forgetting that you've then got the potential issue of integrating numerous players at once, ideally under a different system and different manager as most of us aren't convinced that Wagner is the man (again further cost).

I'm not surprised that Knapper is taking his time over decisions, as from an external view, it's a big ask to make all these changes (many of which are very necessary) whilst still operating with a much lower budget than many of our counterparts, and we don't have owners who are going to throw 200 million or so at players in the way that the likes of Forest or Fulham have done.

I think we've been sensible in this window, offloaded a few squad players to save wages, given Idah the chance to show if he can finally live up to his potential or not, and left a clear option there to replace Wagner in or just before the summer when the main rebuild is needed and no point buying multiple players for the current boss if we intend to change it all in a few months time.

Going to be an interesting 6 months I think, could be good, bad or very ugly though...

[What cheap and available managers are there right now?]

Don't know about cheap, but I still wonder if there's any possibility we could convince Lucien Favre to come here, had his work cut out at a badly run Nice who much like us bought a lot of the wrong players in the summer, but would be ideal for a longer term commitment and willingness to let his ideas and style of play shine, he's always been excellent at developing youth, and tactically is unbelievably proficient.

Said he doesn't want to go back to managing in the Bundesliga, but I do wonder if our star has fallen too far for him to even consider taking over a club at this level, but stranger things have happened, and is so far above most of the names we're likely to be linked with, I'd rather we asked the question and got politely rejected than assume it's a non-starter.

[Clear Out Time]

29 minutes ago, Harry53 said:

For me it's:

FASSNACHT 

BARNES

GIBSON

STACEY

PLACHETA 

ONEL

SPRINGETT

GIBBS

LONG

DUFFY

BATTH

FORSHAW

some of those are are ridiculous long contracts ( thanks to Webber wasting clubs money on old players!!!) So we can't just get rid. Others contracts expire this summer, so sell now in the transfer window If not wanted. Not easy to trim squad, but some players need to be dropped if we can't move them on. 

As for our loaned out players,  let's hope some are considered good enough to be brought back in

I'd agree with most of that aside from 2-3 exceptions.

Gibbs shouldn't be going anywhere, there's a quality player in there but needs to be used correctly and given game time. Similarly, Stacey looked very good when he first arrived, and I think he's more than decent enough at this level whilst helping Fisher develop.

Springett should be loaned out for a full season and if no obvious improvement then let him go.

I'm also slightly on the fence around Fassnacht, seems to be technically decent but lacking in pace and doesn't work with the way we're setup at present, another vaguely ok squad option but not really fussed either way tbh.

The rest can pretty much go, as although Duffy has had a few excellent games, his lack of pace is only going to get worse, and if we want to improve as a side, then the likes of Warner need chances rather than ageing journeymen IMHO.

[Zimbo!]

Zimbo is exactly the kind of model pro that all young footballers should aspire to, shame others aren't more like him.

[Maddison Sell On]

4 hours ago, Pyro Pete said:

So Chelsea get £60m for Mason bloody Mount.

And Leicester only get £40m for Maddison?

Is that just because Gareth Southgate likes one and not the other?

No, it's because Madders is coming from a relegated side who really need a rebuild, whereas Chelsea can afford to demand a bigger premium as they have necessity to sell Mount.

If Leicester had stayed up, I could easily see them demanding the same amount as being touted for Mount to let Maddison go, but that's the price of relegation, and a champs club getting 40 mil for a player must be a new record - even if it's less than I think he's actually worth in relative terms.

[Shots fired from Todd Cantwell]

13 hours ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Todd Cantwell will thrive at Rangers. Not because of the relative poor quality of opposition, but because of the love he'll receive from the stands.

They'll make him feel like a giant. In return, he'll run the extra mile and leave everything on the park.

He could dress as a Juggalo in his spare time, they won't care, as long as he gives him all in a Rangers shirt.

And therein lies the difference TDK.

Even when he was playing his best football with us, there was still the incessant focus on his social media, his personal appearance and numerous other factors that had nothing to do with what he was offering on the pitch from a percentage of our fan base.

This wasn't love from the stands, it was a minor witch hunt from smaller minded people who wanted to focus on the non-football part of the player instead of what actually mattered.

Clearly this had an impact on him on a personal level, alongside other potential issues behind the scenes (that none of us know for sure what happened), and it's no surprise that his performances and apparent attitude tipped as time went on, and it all ended up being a bit acrimonious and from that aspect I can understand a degree of potential bitterness from him about the whole.

It's incredibly easy for us to sit here and look at the wages and the fame and pay no attention to how these things impact your daily life, outlook and demeanour, and I do feel that if there'd been less focus on this, and more on getting behind the lad, then it could have been very different.

In the end, the move was the best choice for all parties, and I'm pleased he's back enjoying his football and getting the plaudits he deserves from the Rangers fans, because much like getting rid of Farke and Buendia, the handling of Cantwell seems to have been another failure to some degree from the club, and certainly from the fans who hounded him relentlessly, and it could all have been very different IMHO.

[Tom ince]

2 hours ago, Danke bitte said:

Do you have your phone alerts set to “Ricky Van Wolfswinkel chat”?!  :  D

Good to see you back though buddy! 
 

Lol, I think I'll still be responding to RVW related content when I retire!

I still peruse the boards daily, but rarely respond these days as most threads seem to devolve VERY quickly, and I decided to ditch as much stress as possible when I improved my health and fitness (which includes my mental health), and can't be bothered with getting into ridiculous arguments and petty name calling so stay quiet most of the time to avoid it.

[Tom ince]

6 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

RVW was eventually built up as being the next Rikki Van Nistelrooy and with a host of big names after his signature we were considered lucky to land him. We became blind to his shortcomings. 

We weren't blind to his shortcomings, but he simply had a manager who intentionally played to those shortcomings instead of the actual strengths he had.

Would he have been a world beater even then - probably not, but there was a MUCH better player in there than we saw, and that's something I'll never change my mind about.

[If Farke became available would you want him back?]

Just to play Devil's advocate here, but have those suggesting Farke for a DoF role considered that the majority of the players he recommended who did so well for us, would no longer be available under Brexit rules?

His strongest knowledge was clearly in the German market, but players like Zimbo and Trybull simply wouldn't be an option under current rules (unless I've misunderstood them?), and we have Webber and his team to thank for Buendia and Pukki rather than Farke.

That aside, I'd love to see him back at the club and although I still think he suits the manager role better than DoF at present, going forwards that could be a very different story, but it would still present a rather large risk in the current situation, and like it or not, Webber's reputation isn't there for nothing either.

[Three playing styles in two years]

The irony here is that even if the decision was made to now revert back towards the 4-2-3-1 we had under Farke, I don't actually think we've got the right players to effectively carry it out anymore.

The jury is still out on what Nunez's best position actually is, none of our wingers really suit the wider attacking mid roles (maybe Tzolis at a push), Dowell may not even be here and hasn't always been consistent, and we still haven't actually addressed the holding midfielder problem in the vein of a Tettey or Skipp either.

I'm also not sure that Sargent would benefit from it anywhere near as much as Pukki did, and considering he's very clearly going to be our main striker next season unless we have a surprise in the summer, then it all becomes a bit pointless.

We're going to have to bite down hard on the hope that Wagner can get his preferred style set in over the remaining games and in the close season, otherwise next year could be yet another misfiring team struggling for form and consistency...

[Are you missing Smith.]

On 20/01/2023 at 07:23, littleyellowbirdie said:

Maybe, but it was a lot more baffling with Chris Hughton. Hughton was vastly more successful than Farke, having kept us up his first season in charge with very little investment with a better league finish than Lambert achieved, but people still refused to give him a break for having replaced the sainted Lambert. Lambert, like Farke, was a master of blowing smoke up the fans' backsides; Hughton, like Smith, was likable, but not a crowd-pleaser. Even the excellent unbeaten run in the Premier League that first season was greeted online with an air of disappointment by many who, as with Smith, just seemed to be chomping at the bit for the players to fail so they could get on his back. Ultimately, failure under him also felt like it was driven by some just really wanting the club to fail for the sake of an obsession with the manager. And yet, neither Lambert nor Farke delivered more than he did in terms of overall outcome for the club.

Just weird how Farke gets more credit for eye-catching success at a lower level than Hughton ever got for more substantial success at a higher level.

Looking back, both Lambert and Farke poisoned the well for those who followed for the sake of the cult of personality around them.

 

For me personally, it had nothing to do with personality (in fact I always respected Hughton's professionalism and demeanour), but was simply down to the footballing style/standard of play on offer.

Both Farke and Lambert played exciting football that was often excellent to watch and really got the blood pumping (as did Alex Neil at times). I always felt under both of them that we could get a result, especially with Lambert, where in the last 15 mins the number of goals we scored was superb, whereas with both Hughton and Smith, with their more passive approach and lack of fluidity made watching games a chore, and lead to some of the most dour games I've watched us play in the last 20 years, even if at times results were acheived.

I seem to recall a game under Hughton where we were 2-0 down and in the 60th minute or so, he brought on a defensive midfielder and seemed happy to accept the loss, whereas Lambert would have probably doubled down on attacking and made a double/treble sub to faciliate this and try to at least salvage a draw, if not pull off an unlikely win.

I've always been more of a fan of winning 5-4 with attacking intent and slick passing, then grinding out a 1-0 win with defensive football that may be in principle more effective and solid. Look at how Stoke fans turned on Pulis despite him consistently keeping them up, because the football on show was simply not great to watch despite it being effective for them. Didn't make Pulis a bad manager, but there's only so long fans will accept that style of play unless they're challenging for titles etc.

So, no, it's not about cults of personality or fans have smoke blown up their backside by managers, but purely about not wanting to watch defensive football with little fluidity or excitement even if that leads to a few decent runs of games, and neither Hughton or Smith were ever likely to bring the brand of football that myself and other fans crave to watch each week.

[Health + Fitness]

8 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Cutting out extra sugar, excess fat off meat, and switching from bread to oatcakes made all the difference with me. I'm still prone to scoffing lots of chocolate, but considering I drink ten or more cups of tea a day, and used to have two sugars in each one, that's a lot of empty calories removed.

Yep, bread is a thing of the past for me, haven't had any in months, with the closest thing to it being Salt & Vinegar Rice Cakes as a snack now and again.

I went from 3 sugars in my tea/coffee, to none and now only drink Black Coffee, Green Tea with Lemon and Water (instead of the 2ltr of 'Zero' sugar pop a day I was having).

Chocolate is also pretty much gone, with the only thing vaguely close to it being a daily protein bar which satisfies my sweet tooth, but with virtually no sugar and 30g of protein to boot, it's an excellent substution for me.

Funny how I'm now eating far less than I used to, but feel far less hungry throughout the day.

Frustrated at myself for not doing this years ago, as if I'd realised it was genuinely going to be this straightforward, I'd have been in far better health a long time ago.

[Health + Fitness]

Decided I'd had enough of being the size of a small cow 6 months ago, changed my eating habits, started exercising and weight training, and pretty much cut out sugar from my diet full stop.

I'm now down in weight from 24 and a half stone to 16 stone 3lbs, with another 10lbs to go to hit my target weight of 15.5 stone (98kg).

My type 2 diabetes has also improved massively, with my last two blood test results showing I was maintaing my Hba1C levels in the normal range for those without any form of diabetes (38 mmol), and I've already been taken off half the medication for this in the process, so just the metformin to go really.

Gone from a 52-54" waist to a 38", and t-shirts have dropped from a 5-6XL down to XL/2XL depending on brand.

Pretty pleased with the changes to be honest, and looking forward to seeing what happens in the next 6 months!

[3rd kit out tomorrow]

Reminds me a bit of the old Global Hypercolour tops (I still miss them despite how cringe they may be)!

[Flashback]

24 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Anyone?

That takes me back FTW, played it first on the SNES, then again later on the Amiga.

Absolutely loved that game, shame they don't make em like that anymore!

[Greatest ever squad by number]

1. B. Gunn
2. Culverhouse
3. Bowen
4. Bruce
5. Fleming
6. Hucks
7. Eadie
8. Fashanu
9. Sutton
10. R. Fox
11. Goss
12. Deehan
13. Green
14. Wessi
15. Klose
16. C. Martin
17. Buendia
18. McVeigh
19. Kenton
20. Francis
21. O'Neill
22. Pukki
23. Maddison
24. Howson
25. Pinto
26. Lewis
27. Tettey
28. A. Gunn
29. RVW
30. Bassong
31. Hanley
32. Evans
33. McGovern
34. Gibson
35. Godfrey
36. Cantwell
37. Aarons
38. Oxborough
39. VOO
40. Tomkinson
41. Dorrans
42. Gibbs
43. Famewo
44. Omo
45. Springett
46. Rowe
50. Barden
56. J. Martin

[Webber]

6 hours ago, Badger said:

So we come back to the issue that has emerged in other threads: realistically, if we want to stay up do we need a far more pragmatic style of football. Four 6 foot 3 inch defenders who barely cross the half-way line but defend deep and hoof up when we win possession. A big very defensive CDM + some other strong and tenacious grafters + some strong quick forwards up front + target man. It would be a lot easier to recruit for and I fear, the most likely way of staying up as we have seen with Burnley, Palace (until this year) etc.

And if that's genuinely how we'd have to play to stay in the league, then I'd rather go down and have hopefully another superb champs season to bounce back up again.

I have zero interest in watching the style of football played by the likes of Burnley (or Stoke in their better years), that would be like going back to watching us 2nd season under Hughton which was worse to watch than this one (or the last PL season during Covid) has been.

The game has changed phenomenally since our heady days of the late 80's to early 90's, but we always managed to play good football despite not having big name players on our books, whereas now it appears almost impossible to do that in a game destroyed by money and greed, but the solution isn't to play like Burnley either, because it's simply not worth the trade-off in being able to enjoy the game just to scrape 17th each season...

[The Apologists Are A Man Down Tonight.]

11 hours ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

Did they sell their best player when they came up to? No, he was bagging a hatrick against us today 

And were any clubs actually making bids for his services, because I don't remember seeing any genuine bids made for him from 'bigger' teams despite the usual rumouts floating around in the media.

Let's face it, if a genuinely better side had wanted him, he'd have been gone, but again, I didn't see anyone waving 30mil+ in Brentford's direction, so it's a bit disingenuous to try to use the "they didn't sell their best player" as a stick against the club isn't it, when the situations were quite different?