Indy_Bones

[quote user="Delias Devonshire Dirtbox"]ffs everyone stop goin on about Lita, what would we pay his 20k a week wages with? money from our magic money tree?[/quote]I''d have thought that after years of fans complaining about "prudence with ambition", the suggestion we might start paying decent money for proven quality would be a breath of fresh air.Any option we signed on the cheap would arguably come with a far less proven record at this level (or even higher), and do we really want to gamble every time on a new player?The board have suggested that we''re going to ''go for it'' this season, and push for another promotion, so arguably we DO have a magic money tree (even if it''s a bit of a sapling at the minute) and therefore we can invest in quality players who have shown their ability to get the job done, as against some ''hungry'' player from the lower leagues who''s never come across a semi-decent defender before - or an organised team for that matter.Let''s also be reasonable here and look at the fact that we wouldn''t be paying a transfer fee, and I''d suggest that for a player of Lita''s caliber, you wouldn''t normally get much change from at least £2 mil (accepting the fact that Boro also managed to get him on a free), so you could argue that we''d paid the transfer fee, but weren''t paying him any wages - at least for 2 seasons. It doesn''t make any major difference to the total outlay as they come out at nearly the same.Unless you get very lucky or pull a transfer masterstroke, then you have to pay good money for good players, and if we genuinely do want to make any sort of challenge this season, then we have to bite the bullet, and invest in some proven talent even if it costs more than we''ve grown accustomed to paying. - as long as we don''t bankrupt the club in the process!

[quote user="NCFC91"]Yeah, just someone who has somewhat ''done the rounds'' and may not be as hungry as someone up and coming with something to prove.[/quote]I''d rather take someone who has ''done the rounds'' and proven their ability at the top level, than someone who hasn''t proven this.It''s one thing to take a punt on someone like Cody who cost virtually nothing and we can take our time with, but if we''re genuinely looking to improve our squad we need to be looking at more experienced players who have got the ability to perform when asked.Like I said previously, if it just comes down to motivation, I''d put my trust in Lambert to get it right.

[quote user="RonDavies"]We might be falling into the trap of judging him from his time at Norwich, when he was brilliant of course. But by all accounts, all the other teans he''s played for in the last few years have not got the best out of him for some reason. Still - it might be worth  a shot.[/quote]Being fair to him, Middlesbrough haven''t been a high scoring team this season, and aren''t exactly playing attacking football. So far this season they''ve only scored more than 2 goals in 6 games, the rest of the games it''s been either 1 or 2 goals. They''ve also suffered from the loss of their best players for this season in Downing, Tuncay, Huth and Johnson, and seeing as how Strachan has pretty much decided to fill Boro with Scottish players, they''ve not exactly set the league alight.We know he''s a quality player from his time here, and if it comes down to whether or not a manager can get the best out of him, I''d suggest that Lambert is as good at this as anyone.Even if wages were fairly high, it''d probably be worth it for a striker who''s been a proven goalscorer at the top level, and isn''t costing us a transfer fee.I''d certainly welcome him with open arms.Grounds would also be worth a look as well depending on wages.

Err...How about we wait and see what happens, because unless Colchester can conclusively prove that our meeting with Lambert either forced/cajoled or otherwise unfairly influenced his decision to resign, then we have done nothing wrong.Bear in mind that after our initial approach and refusal by Cowling, Lambert himself demanded to speak to us which Cowling agreed to, which certainly sounds to me like someone who was more than willing to consider a move away, otherwise why ask to speak to us?Unless there is evidence to the contrary, then compensation should be no more than the cost of the remainder of Lamberts/Culverhouses and Karsas contracts - end of.

[quote user="grantroederdisaster"]The inclusion of the Doc in the League 1 team of the year voted by players proves my point that hes one of the best CBs in this Division and will be capable of doing well in the Championship which he has before![/quote]No-one''s arguing about whether or not he''s one of the best CB''s in this division.Let''s face it, if a former Premiership player can''t perform at League One level, then football is even more screwed up than we think. What''s more, performance at League One level does not guarantee or prove ability at a higher level, it simply proves they are more than good enough for the level they are playing at.Out of interests, can you please point those of us who don''t rate Doc that highly in the direction of the seasons in the CCC where he has done well previously, because I can''t think of a single season where this has been the case. I''m not talking about individual games, or particular tackles etc, but a season where he consistently performed strongly for us in the CCC, maybe with a few good examples to illustrate this reasoning?His whole problem is the ability to make truly awful errors either in judgment or techincal performance, which lead to problems and often goals conceded. If he didn''t have this aspect to his game he''d be in the prem, but he does and you''re always nervous and waiting for this to happen in a game.

[quote user="freddyf105"]Just to clarify Indy-i''m struggling to understand!- it''s not possible for a player to make the step up from league 1 to the championship?? I don''t get you..[/quote]It''s totally possible for a player to make the step up.But if said player had already played at that level for 5 years and done nothing to prove their quality at that standard, then claiming they are good enough for that level on the back of a single season in League One is somewhat dubious.That conversation was in relation to Doherty, and being fair, Holt has only ever scored consistently at L1 and below, so we don''t know if he will perform as strongly next season, but that''s because we''ve only got lower league performances to truly judge from. If he''d been in the Prem/CCC for 5 years and consistently struggled to score - would you say he was good enough for the level, or that L1 and below is where he''s best suited?

[quote user="morty"]Did the Doc nail your missus or something Indy?[/quote]Oddly enough I was going to ask if he was your life partner...

It''s got nothing to do with looks or any superficial stuff like that, it''s purely because some of us simply don''t rate the guy that much.I''ve seen bear-hugging/grappling, awful decision making, woeful headers, at times the seeming pace of snail, passes forward that belong only on a rugby pitch and general errors that have cost us badly.He reminds me a bit of Titus Bramble, in that he can be having an excellent game, making strong tackles and looking like a class defender, only for him to seemingly lose concentration of what''s going on, make an awful tackle/clearance etc and end up costing a goal.The point is that if he didn''t have this error-prone side to his game, he''d be a top class defender at a premiership side, what we''ve instead got is a flawed diamond that looks more prone to further cracks the higher the level he''s played at. This is also arguably the reason why no other club has taken the gamble on his services.

[quote user="evertoniancolufan"]he was OUR manager its OUR right to demand whatever compensation we want. If I''m selling a house to you and you think I want far too much for it what happens? Answer: you don''t buy it. You don''t move in immediately and then try to agree a price later[/quote]WTF has that got to do with appointing PEOPLE???You weren''t ''selling'' an inanimate object, you were looking to agree a price with another club whereby you would end your contract with an individual so that he could get another contract with the approaching club. In the event that this individual cancels their own contract with you, that''s nothing to do with us.A house, car or anything of this nature cannot resign, so your comparison is beyond ridiculous.The fact is that Lambert knew a good thing when he saw it, and jumped at the chance to leave a dump for a much better organisation, it just bitterness that won''t allow Col U and it''s fans to deal with this sad fact...

[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]But not in the sodding Championship![/quote]Quite right Graham, apols for the error there, it was the 07/08 season in League 1 where he was on the wing, not the Championship

[quote user="evertoniancolufan"]how on earth can you not thinkg you owe us money? Even Norwich themselves know that, they''re just disagreeing over the price. Cowling rejected Lambert''s resignation and Norwich should not have unveiled him until it had been agreed. Why should every club play by the rules and sort out compo first but Norwich don''t have to? What makes you so fucking special? Its quite simple, if you want another club''s manager you can have him provided you agree a fee, whether he resigns or not.What next? are you going to try and buy one of our players and just add him to your team and then argue over a fee?[/quote]Quite simple really, because we didn''t appoint him when he was under contract to Colchester.He resigned before joining us, and unless you can categorically prove that he was forced/pressured etc into doing this by us, then you have no case.Any arguments over his contract and compensation due would be between Lambert and Colchester, and if they were due for example £50k to pay for the remainder of his contract, then Lambert would have to pay this to them, and if he didn''t they should take him to court over it, it''s still got nothing to do with us.At most we should have to pay whatever the remainder of his, Culverhouse''s and Karsa''s contract were worth in compensation and not a penny more, and I don''t even a agree with this unless you can prove they were ''tapped up'', which is going to be very difficult considering your chairman allowed us to openly speak to Lambert...

[quote user="Lambert is King"]Your description is a preety good description of our star striker Grant Holt, and I would be horrified if he was not to at least be given a chance next year. This is a different team a different style of play and Lambert knows exactly what is what. Your logic must apply to both players, in fact are any of our players proven championship players. Put your trust in Lambert, the past has gone now and whatever he does needs support from everyone in the club.  [/quote]The difference here is that aside from a season being stuck out on the wing for Forest in the Championship, Holt hasn''t had the opportunity to prove his Championship credentials or not.If he''d been with us for 5 seasons in the CCC and played between average to poorly the entire time, hardly scoring goals, but then performed like he did this season, we''d have good reason to be cautious about his potential this coming season because his previous showings at a higher level weren''t good, and it would potentially indicate that his ability was more suited to League One level rather than the CCC.It doesn''t necessarily mean that he''s not good enough, but simply that based on previous evidence, it would be doubtful if he would perform to the same standard as this season - when he was playing against poorer opposition.It''s one thing to offer a contract based on limited evidence either way, but totally another to offer one in the face of evidence that suggests a lack of ability/performance at that level...

[quote user="evertoniancolufan"]Norwich are the only club I can remember who seemingly had to appoint him immediately and just bulldozed ahead with their plan without doing it properly. It doesn''t matter if you value him a lot lower than we do because he was ours in the first place, if you don''t agree with the price of something you don''t go and steal it then haggle over the price later. [/quote]Hahaha,We asked for permission to appoint him as manager, we were intially refused, but then Lambert said to Cowling that he wanted to speak to us, and Cowling then agreed to allow us to speak to Lambert about a deal with the view that he would move after compensation had been agreed.Following this meeting, Lambert tended his resignation as he wished to join Norwich.At which point did we break rules?We didn''t force Lambert to resign, nor were we unwilling to pay compensation for his and his assistants services - despite the fact that they''d resigned and Colchester were entitled to nothing from us as any contract dispute would have been between Lambert/Culverhouse/Karsa and Col U, the fact that we had become their new employers was irrelevant.It''s nothing more than sour grapes from a miserable excuse of a chairman who''s trying to bluster his way into an undeserved payday for his club.Frankly I think Colchester should be fined for dragging the whole thing out this long, refusing to accept a more than fair offer, and wasting league time with their whining, especially after claiming they had appointed a better man and then chronically failing to justify this statement...

[quote user="morty"]Lol, perhaps we should get Theo back too, give him a proper chance.I didn''t read all of your post because I know it pretty much sums up as "I am on a crusade and will continue to post tripe until people agree with me"[/quote]Ah, that old chestnut again.Regardless of whether or not Theo was actually good enough, we''ll never know for sure because he wasn''t given the chance to prove it either way by getting more first team appearances.I bet if Theo had been in the side for years in the Championship and was found guilty of dropping clangers on a regular basis, but then had a good season in League One, you''d be the first to demand he get a new contract.There is no way you can form a fair opinion on a player based on a single league game, and a few appearances for the reserves.Anyway, I''m not on a crusade, I don''t expect everyone to agree with my opinon, merely to accept that it''s as valid as their own, and the only way we''ll know who''s ''right'' as it were, is if Doherty is here next season and see how he plays.

[quote user="morty"]Lol, I think someone needs to turn the computer off for a while and have a nice cup of tea.[:)][/quote]Nope,You''ve made your stance and opinion quite clear on this subject, and I just wanted to keep other posters advised about their lack of need to worry about Holt, based upon your own statements in this area.

[quote user="morty"]So when Lambert gives him a new contract will you concede that your opinion is completely wrong?[/quote]The only time those of us who are concerned about Doherty''s ability will concede this, is if Lambert does offer the new contract and he has a strong season for us in the Championship -as I already stated on my previous ''longer'' response that you couldn''t be bothered to read.

[quote user="AndyCanary"]How Holt steps up next season will be a big question! He''s a big chap and whether he''ll be able to cut it in the Championship will be a question not many will want to answer! This is why there wouldn''t be any interest in him ''yet''.[/quote]Apparently his performance for us this season in League One guarantees his ability in the Championship - at least that''s what some posters like Morty are suggesting on the Doherty contract thread.Any player who has performed well this season in League One, regardless of previous performances in the Championship is pure quality and deserves a contract and is guaranteed to perform for us.You heard it first on the Pink''un boards, so I guess Lambert and all the other CCC managers will be scrambling to buy every player from the League One team of the season to help guarantee a promotion next season in the CCC...

But would he rather have first team football with us, Reading or another Championship team?Not to mention whether or not a ''smaller'' prem team would consider a move.I just can''t see it happening even if he is available.

[quote user="morty"]So, players that have played against him really didn''t agree with you or Indy, hence voting him one of the two best centre backs in the division, I know whose opinion I value most.[/quote]And this is why you should have bothered to read my post.IT''S NOT ALL ABOUT HIS PERFORMANCES THIS SEASON FFS!!!!!!!!PERFORMANCE OF A SUPPOSED CHAMPIONSHIP PLAYER AT LEAGUE ONE LEVEL SHOULD BE TAKEN FOR GRANTED, PREVIOUS LACK OF PERFORMANCES AT CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL SHOULD RAISE CONCERNS ABOUT A PLAYERS ABILITY AT THAT LEVEL.A SINGLE GOOD SEASON AT A LOWER LEVEL DOES NOT DICTATE THE ABILITY OF A PLAYER TO PERFORM AT A HIGHER LEVEL, NOR SHOULD IT DICTATE REASONING FOR A NEW CONTRACT.How many f**king times do I need to repeat this???

Depends on whether or not Chelsea intend to renew his contract or not.If he was available on a free and not asking silly wages, they definitely, as he''s clearly better than Rose, and would give Drury a much stronger level of competition for the left back place.That being said, if he was on a free, then chances are that Reading, and half the Championship would also be interested, and I think we''d have a hard sell against some of them, but nothing ventured...

[quote user="morty"]Lol, some people just won''t admit they got it wrong.Oh and I really couldn''t be arsed to read all that btw.[/quote]And some people are so rude and arrogant, that they are unwilling to concede that someone else may have a valid opinion.At least I''m offering reasoning and a degree of substance to my opinion, which is far more than you are.If you''re able to respond in more than 2 sentences, how about offering fair reasons why you disagree with my opinion, and providing good reasoning about your own opinion, instead of just making snide comments and responses lacking any sort of substance???

[quote user="Houston Canary"]No thanks. I am sure he deserved it, though. I am not sure what that has to do with anything I''ve written on this thread. I never said he was not playing well this season post-reinstatement.[/quote]You could admit he was playing well until you were blue in the face Houston and some posters still wouldn''t get the point that yourself and I are trying to make.I''m going to make a final attempt however...Ok, imagine you''re at a former championship club who had just been relegated to league one and you''re looking back at your teams performance in League One this year.You have a striker who has just come up through the youth system this season and has performed pretty well scoring a respectable amount of goals - does this make them good enough to repeat this performance in the Championship or even higher? The correct answer should be - we simply don''t know for sure. We can make guesses based on the back of the nature of his performances etc, but we simply will not know until he''s given the chance. It would not be totally unreasonable in this situation however to postulate that he may well be good enough, even if he doesn''t perform quite as strongly, purely because this single season is the only information we have to work from.Now imagine you''re at the same club, and you have another striker who has not only played in the top flight, but also for a number of years in the Championship. Their performances in general at that level have been nothing to write home about, in fact considering the quality of player they were meant to be, their performances have been pretty poor and they''ve scored virtually no goals despite 30+ apps a season. However, now that the player has dropped down to league one, they''ve performed at more like the sort of level they were meant to be, and have scored plenty of goals this season - albeit against poorer opposition than previously. Does this single season at a lower level mean that the player is good enough for the higher level, or does their previous poor record tell us far more? Again, the answer is not straightforward, because we have to ask what standard of team they were previously in, what sort of supply they received etc. The point I would make here is that even in poor teams with limited supply, a good striker will still perform well and score goals, and therefore in this case, we can see that the striker simply isn''t a top class player, and that league one is probably their level.The overall point I''m trying to illustrate here is that a single season of good performances at a lower level certainly does not guarantee or prove a players ability at a higher level - particularly when historically their performances at that higher level have been nothing to write home about. By applying this train of reasoning, it should be taken onboard that Doherty''s good season this year (even if it is a level or two below his supposed ability), should not automatically guarantee a new contract, because realistically his previous seasons at the higher level should be taken into consideration because they are arguably more relevant.But to be fair here, we should also look at 2 conflicting pieces of evidence, the first one stating that Doherty has been selected by every single manager since his arrival here, so he must be pretty good or why would each manager keep playing him? Fair question, and until there''s evidence to the contrary, it has to be accepted that it was because they thought he was a good enough player - although we do also have to consider the club''s financial status and level of competition for that place here as well.The second one is that despite Doherty''s contract twice being due for renewal during his stay here and being openly told he was free to leave, no other club ever made a firm offer for a transfer or loan for his services. Does this not strike a few as odd that a player the ''pro Doherty'' camp would rate highly, has never been approached for a move - even when we were playing poorly and looking to be struggling somewhat financially? Think of all the players the club has sold during his time here, ask yourself if you think they are better or worse players than Doherty, then ask the question as to why those players that were worse or equal to him got approached and he didn''t.And there''s the conflict, we''ve had a succession of managers (who most fans think were poor, Lambert and to a certain extent Worthy exempt) who gave him the playing time, yet no other manager in the league has looked at doing so. Again, we don''t know the reason here and any theories would be idle speculation, but I personally have to wonder why numerous other managers weren''t interested and ours were. Surely if he was Championship standard, then numerous championship clubs would have been all over him in regards to a free transfer (which has been available on 2-3 occasions during his stay here), and yet - nothing...And that''s the area of concern for fans like myself. We''ve seen him play in the Championship, and even if the squad wasn''t great, we simply haven''t rated his individual performances, and being told that single good season at a lower level is more than enough justification for a new contract is somewhat faulty reasoning. I have nothing personal against the guy, and will happily praise his performances this season for the team, but that doesn''t mean I''m simply going to forget about all the poor games I saw him play for us in the Championship, nor does it mean I''m going to advocate paying good wages to a player who has chronically failed to perform at the level we''re going to be playing at next season.I really do hope that this has clarified my own, and some other posters view on this subject. It''s not some personal vendetta against a player for no reason, it''s based on seeing repeated poor showings over a number of years, and just like some fans aren''t willing to forget about the mistakes the board has made based on the teams performance this season, I''m not willing to dismiss my concerns about a player purely because they have played well this season. If he gets the new contract and plays well for us next season I''ll be the first to agree that it was the right choice and give him credit for the performances, but I''m not just going to ignore his previous performances and blindly advocate the giving of a contract on the back of a single season in League One.

[quote user="GJP"]In football (and in life, I guess) you should always look to learn, listen to those who know a bit better than you and then take it onboard. This is one of those times when you should listen to those who know a bit better than yourself.[/quote] And this is one of those times when you should consider being far less arrogant, and actually taking your own advice in accepting that others may know something about a subject apart from yourself. If you don''t agree with my opinion that''s fair enough, and you''re totally entitled to voice your own views, but why resort to simply questioning the ability of another to even hold an opinion, especially in lieu of your own supporting evidence as to why you should even be listened to in the first place?

[quote user="morty"]How many games have you been to this season to make this opinion?[/quote]Head against wall...Frankly I couldn''t give a flying f**k about his performances this season (even though I have given him credit on a number of occasions), it''s been his poor performances for years at a higher league level that concerns me.If a striker can''t seem to score consistently in the CCC for 3-4 years, but then finds his shooting boots after relegation into League 1, does this make then a good enough CCC striker, or does the fact that he''s failed miserably at that level time after time not give cause for concern?Performances in League 1 do not equate to or guarantee ability at CCC level or better, so for all intents and purposes Doherty''s play this season is irrelevant in comparison to the years of dross he served up on CCC duty for us.Is that clear enough or do I need to borrow one of those parliamentary vehicles with the loudspeakers on to get this simple premise through to you???

[quote user="GJP"]Complete and utter tosh. Again.[/quote] Thanks for such a well reasoned and structured response...I suppose when asked your opinion on why a certain player should be signed, your response would be - "He just should".So much for discussion on a forum...