Jim Smith

Re the straw that broke the camels back debate I agree with Purple that the way the season has panned out (or perhaps more specifically the fixtures have panned out) has left us in limbo because if this habit Hughton had of pulling out a result when he absolutely needs one. It means we never quite cross that line and trickle along just treading water. That would be ok in some seasons but the reason it''s particularly worrying this season is the last 4 or 5 fixtures. It''s quite possible that we could limp along just outside the bottom three up until then only to find ourselves sucked into the bottom 3 with 2 or 3 games to go and with no prospect of escape. That''s my main worry this season. Removing Hughton therefore needs to be done on a bigger picture basis rather than on the basis of current league position or the results of one game. Are performances good enough, is he getting the best out of the players and are we seriously at risk of going down if he stays are the three questions the board should be basing their decision on.

Yes. He has that presence and edge that Hughton completely lacks. Would get our players believing again and running through brick walls. Would probably fancy a crack at the prem.

Whilst bemoaning our lack of quality finishing. Must be great for Hooper and Ricky to hear.

I really don''t think we need to make wholesale changes, more just let the players play with a bit more freedom but i would: 1. Immediately abandon this sodding zonal marking nonsense. 2. Get Tettey back in the side if fit (in fairness out of Hughton''s hands). 3. Get Wes back in the team. Ruddy Martin Bassong Bennett Olsson Tettey Fer Snodgrass Hoolahan Redmond Hooper That side, with the fullbacks given a bit more freedom and Tettey sitting thus enabling Fer to occasionally get forward should be good enough in my view.

[quote user="Sons of Boadicea"]I do not think you can argue against their being a groundswell of opinion wanting Chris Hughton to be sacked. Lets just assume for a moment that Norwich do not get relegated and Chris Hughton is still manager at the start of the 2014/2015 Premiership season, how many season tickets do you think will get renewed, for me the figure renewing under that scenario will be far more telling than any on line poll.........[/quote] Not sure that''s the case. I want him gone but would still renew my season ticket because its what I (and other fans) do because we support Norwich City and not Chris Hughton, David Mcnally or any other one individual.

[quote user="newbe"]3,800 responses from 25,000 fans? Its always going to be the moaners who were going to vote, not the majority of fans.[/quote] Its a pretty large sample of our fan base. Granted those who want him out are probably more passionate about it and so more likely to vote but you cannot just completely disregard a poll of 3,800 people as not being representative of the fan base. Its the biggest indicator available. And before someone comes back and says lets see if there are 25,000 people shouting for his head on Saturday there are approximately 20,000 inside Carrow Road for every match who don;t ever shout anything! If 3,800 people shout Hughton out on Saturday that will be seen as large scale discontent. personally I know of very few fans who do not think he should go so am inclined to believe that is the view of the majority.

I do agree with some of the observations regarding that league cup tie v Villa. I was devastated at the way we threw away such a great chance of getting to Wembley which for most of our fans under 35 would have been a first. It was also an early indication of the kind of tactical inflexibility and inability to react to obvious issues on the pitch that has come to characterise Hughton''s regime. Even though the rush of goals did not come til late in the game it was very obvious from early on in that game that Lambert had given Villa the upper hand with the formation he put out, that we were being outnumbered in midfield, that our defensive midfielders were being overrun and that we could not retain possession but he just kept things as they were for most of the game. For me though the pivotal moment when I realised Hughton''s management was severely flawed came at West Brom a few weeks later when, on the back of a 10 match unbeaten run so with the team high on confidence, he was comprehensively outmanoevred in the second half by Steve Clarke. That was the end of our run and the odd game aside we''ve been pretty poor ever since.

Cameroon might be more impressed if he managed to cut out weak crosses like the one that led to the first for Fulham on Tuesday and should be easy for a defender of his calibre to deal with. How he contrived to miss that is beyond me. Bassong was great last season but something has gone wrong with him this season and he is making too many mistakes at the moment.

3,800 responses. Must say even as a confirmed outer i''m quite staggered the result is that comprehensive.

That the board have allowed a forthcoming home game against a cr*p team (and I don;t care if they are a few points ahead of us Hull are not very good) to become the barometer of whether or not Chris Hughton is good enough to be manager of Norwich City Football Club thus guaranteeing a tense, nervous atmosphere in a game we need to win. I find this so infuriating. Chris Hughton has proven over a long period of time that he is a poor manager. Whether or not we beat Hull City at home on Saturday changes nothing in terms of whether Hughton is a good manager or not but you can guarantee that if we do scrape a win we will be told that it is proof that the players are still behind him and that he is the right man for the job, thus guaranteeing his presence for the rest of the season, that we will be back with another "must win" home game in 6 weeks time following some disappointing results in the interim and putting our premiership status in jeopardy. Its not about whether we can beat poor/average teams at home or whether or not the players like Chris Hughton. Its about whether he is a good enough manager to get the best out of the group of players we have and he has already emphatically answered that question.

[quote user="MancCanary"]"You can play an extra one in midfield and it means you have a bit more possession, but then you’re not giving yourselves the opportunities to score.” Isn''t that what we''ve been playing all season? Is he actually saying that, for real, about the tactics he''s been using all season? And then he plays 2 upfront in one of the games that I''m pretty sure we''d all have been happy with just 1 up front and more in midfield. He''s not helping himself.[/quote] He doesn''t know what he''s saying. He gets it wrong most weeks and then tries to justify it to save his own neck.

This signing is a bit depressing. Newcastle fans almost universally say he''s cr*p and he is generally described as a "defensive winger." We already have 8 men behind the ball most weeks. We have Pilks coming back from injury and Mutphy impressing every time he gets a chance. Why are we spending £3m on a player who will limit their chances and probably make us even less creative. I will obviously give the guy a chance and maybe away from home it may be preferable to playing a full back on the wing but it feels like Hughton is signing a player who embodies everything we find a bit depressing about Hughton''s style of football.

The problem with data in relation to this sort of issue is that it does not take account of the circumstances surrounding individual cases and more specifically whether any current underperformance is due to the manager or other circumstances surrounding the club. Now I know some on here do not accept that we are underperforming anyway but for those of us who believe our current squad is not fulfilling its potential whether or not you think a change of management will make a difference will depend on whether you think that underperformance is down to the manager of other mitigating circumstances. Whilst I accept we have had injuries, I think it''s overwhelmingly down to the manager and I think that a passionate, positive manager would get an awful lot more out of these players.

[quote user="ricardo"]After another loss the forum last night was full of the usual unfounded comments about how everyone else was doing better and picking up points while we were in freefall according to some. Those with new managers were on the up and if only we did the same the results were bound to follow. Well lets have a look at that.I posted a relegation thread at the end of November and those that have read it will know my thesis is that the table is quickly set in stone and very little changes from there on in. After a dozen games the relegated teams will usually be found already in the bottom five and they don''t move much if at all.Here is the bottom of the table after 12 gamesCardiff 13 pointsNorwich 11 pointsW Ham 10 pointsFulham 10 pointsPalace 7 points new manager 23.11.13Sundrlnd 7 points new manager 7.10.13Here it is now after 21 gamesNorwich 20 pointsFulham 19 points new manager 1.12.13W Ham 18 pointsCardiff 18 points new manager 2.01.14Sundrlnd 17 pointsPalace 17 pointsWe have the same bottom two, albeit they are a single point closer. Fulham are still a point behind us though W Ham have dropped a further point back. Cardiff look to be the only losers from that bunch, mostly you are hard pushed to find any change. Most of what we see is the noise in the data. The signal appears to be exactly the same as it was at the end of November.I suspect that it won''t be much different come May. [/quote] And it wasn''t good enough after 12 games and it''s not good enough now. The fact we are matching the cr*ppest sides in this league is not indicative of acceptable performance.

[quote user="Le Juge"]"We play 10th place on Saturday I think. If we beat them we''ll be equal on points to them" Yeah and if we lose we will probably be in the relegation zone.[/quote] League position is irrelevant to me. The fact others are poor does not excuse our poor performance. I base my views on what I see on the pitch every week and hear off it.

[quote user="City1st"][quote user="City1st"][quote user="Jim Smith"]To be fair he does talk about maybe "pulling off an upset" (which is irritating in its own right - we are not minnows going there in the FA Cup) but Hughton''s comments about the Everton game make me particularly pessimistic about how today will pan out. "A draw away is always a decent result" and "it''s difficult to close them down in all areas" (or words to that effect) have me fearing a Spurs away type showing where we sit off them. Lets hope the performance proves my concerns unfounded.[/quote]the pitch being one of those areasand finally an admittance that he is still forcing the players into this flawed zonal sh itefor those watching on a stream, check -1 how many times when we gain possession most of our players remain static offering no options2 when the opposition have the ball we sit off them and they always have at least two options ... you can spot where they are going to pass to3 the cardinal sin of allowing an opposition player to be unmarked just outside the 18 yd boxhis failings are so predictable it''s highly likely that other clubs have not watched our games and picked up on them [/quote]and don''t even challenge but back pedal off the player with the ballsame old........ [/quote] It was very, very obvious they were doing this at Spurs and his comments before yesterday''s game made it obvious what would happen.

Because my frustration at the current managerial regime is such that I think it''s bordering on unhealthy. Hughton may be a nice bloke but I am really starting to despise the way he and his two sidekicks have sucked the enjoyment out of watching our club and replaced it with a mixture of boredom and frustration. His pre match comments made it very clear how we were going to play yesterday. Drop off them, sit deep and play for a draw. Forget two up front. It''s a red herring. You can play 4-4-2 negatively or positively just as you can with any other formation. What makes the difference is whether the players sent out there are allowed to express themselves and press up the pitch or whether they are made yo play the timid, negative stuff that we play. Yesterday had spurs away written all over it and that is sheet happened. Yes both spurs and Everton are decent sides, well capable of beating us at home. However the way we approach these games makes it a stroll for teams and makes them look like world beaters. A draw is a good result. These are a quality side. It''s difficult l to close them down in all areas. Bigger and better clubs. Everything that comes from the mans mouth implies an inferiority complex in relation to most teams in this division. He talked this week like we were a minnow off yo Goodison in the FA Cup. This is our manager for gods sake.The man is sucking the life out of the club. It''s now gone on for so long I am resigned to no change. A scrappy win over Hull will keep us just about afloat and ensure he stays on beyond the end of this month after which it''s hard to see a change being made. He may, may, just scrape safety if we get a bit of luck and win our easier home games. If he foes though it''s not success in my eyes. It''s achieving the least that this squad of players should be capable of.

To be fair he does talk about maybe "pulling off an upset" (which is irritating in its own right - we are not minnows going there in the FA Cup) but Hughton''s comments about the Everton game make me particularly pessimistic about how today will pan out. "A draw away is always a decent result" and "it''s difficult to close them down in all areas" (or words to that effect) have me fearing a Spurs away type showing where we sit off them. Lets hope the performance proves my concerns unfounded.

[quote user="Steve180"]This is my first post. I''m really getting fed up with all the in/out talk, and I want to see just what people''s expectations are. The way I see it, there are two elements - league position and style of play. Surely we all want to be as high up the league as possible and play as attractive football was possible. Neither of those things are where we want them to be, at present. Are they separate,nor are they inextricably linked? Does anyone think we should be finishing higher than about 9th, or that our ambition should be any higher than that, realistically? So we''re talking about getting something like 50 points over a season, to finish there. More than that are we would be rubbing shoulders with the likes of Everton etc. Our current style of play is on course to achieve about 40 points. Last season it achieved 44 points. So could a different manager get two more wins than last season out of the same set of players that would see us to the 50 point mark and achieve our ambitions? When it comes down to it, that just means winning three games that we ended up drawing last season, it''s that fine.[/quote] You are right it is that fine but is Hughton a manager who is going to turn draws into wins and ensure we stay the right side of that fine line? I really don;t think he is and my fear is that his inherent conservatism, inability to change games during play and poor coaching staff mean we are much more at risk of relegation than this squad of players could or should be. Quite simply i believe that there are plenty of managers who would do better with the same squad of players and under whom the risk of relegation would be less. Hughton''s approach makes fine margins inevitable, I do not think it has to be the case. That said I have accepted he''s not going anywhere now (post palace was the time to change if we were doing it) and his one saving grace thus far has been his performance in the transfer market. I therefore hope that if we can buy a decent player (or two) this January then that coupled with the return to fitness of the likes of Pilks, Tettey and RVW will see us improve and ease clear of the bottom 3. That in turn may give Hughton and the team a bit more belief and lead to the more expansive football we are all hoping to see.

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Do not really buy this "we must not sell him to Lambert/Villa " stuff. Sure the whole departure of PL left a sour taste for a while, but their money is as good as anyone else''s, and if they put in a good bid (better than 750 k !) it''ll be the money that ultimately does the talking.As for selling to one of our rivals....well, one of the top clubs is not going to be interested in Wes, so, unless he is prepared to drop down to the Championship (unlikely), then whoever we sell him to (if indeed we do sell) is going to fit into the category of "one of our rivals", surely ?[/quote] Point is that we should not be selling unless someone offers us stupid money. And how ever you try and dress it up selling to Villa is worse in my eyes than others. The thought of us going to Villa Park later this season and having Wes run rings around us whilst we try and play out a draw makes me feel sick.

[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="star_manic"]Those stats would be rubbish Jim, if the matches he played in were against the bottom teams, but brilliant if played against the top teams. So basically they are prety meaningless.[/quote] Not sure I agree Star. he played 28 times, including appearances against every team in the division so its not like he only played against the good or the bad teams. Fact is we average 0.2. points per game better when he starts for us.[/quote] Sorry that season we averaged 0.2 points er game better when he started for us.

[quote user="star_manic"]Those stats would be rubbish Jim, if the matches he played in were against the bottom teams, but brilliant if played against the top teams. So basically they are prety meaningless.[/quote] Not sure I agree Star. he played 28 times, including appearances against every team in the division so its not like he only played against the good or the bad teams. Fact is we average 0.2. points per game better when he starts for us.

I get where the OP is coming from but do not wish either of them to leave. My hope is that both stay and fight for their places in the team and that either Hughton sees the light and gives them both more opportunities or that when we get a new, decent manager he has both players at his disposal. Both are talented. The word legend is banded about too much but I think Wes is right up there and deserves his Hall of Fame place (although places in the HOF have been dished out far too easily in my view). Fox is a great little player who was an integral part of our rise, never let us down and who i think could still play a valuable role for us if permitted. Indeed arguably Fox''s game (if alongside the right players) is more suited to the premier league than it was the lower leagues. As I posted in the David Fox thread the other day: 2011/2012 David Fox: Appearances: 28 Starts: 23 Sub appearances: 5 Season record: W12, D11, L15 (PPG 1.23) Record when Fox appeared: W9, D9, L10 (PPG 1.29) Record when Fox started: W7, D9, L7 (PPG 1.3) Record when Fox did not appear: W3, D2, L5 (PPG 1.1)

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]There may (indeed probably IS) something in what you say Indy, but the fact remains that we can only go with what we''ve got, and, for better or worse, CH is the manager, and therefore we must run with his take on things. We have little or no choice. My view remains that we are not the sort of club who can afford the luxury of paying players to come on for a few minutes once in a blue moon.[/quote] In this case we can and we should rather than sell him to them. The money on offer is not worth strengthening a rival and weakening our own hand in one fell swoop.

It is Hughton''s fault because he has p**sed off one of our best and most talented players who should have played a lot more and effectively driven him into the arms of Lambert. Its the same as the Holt situation. Players may tolerate Hughton but it does not seem that many attacking players really enjoy playing under him. Our retort via Dennis (which clearly has been fed to him by the club) also is hardly a "he''s not for sale" response. "Almost insulting", "won''t speak to them til after the tribunal...." It feels to me like Hughton has indicated that he will sell if the price is right and that Wes wants to go but we are struggling to know how to handle it given that its Villa and the offer they have made is pathetic. My own view is that IF he does put in a transfer request or their is any truth in these stories in the Birmingham Mail or the Mirror then we should reject any offers and put him in the U21s for the rest of the season. We don;t need the money and we should not let odious t**ts like Villa manipulate us like this and be able to unsettle our players by offering derisory amounts of money for our players.