nycanary

...playing devil''s advocate here.... green has looked just outstanding this year. he has been the difference between a point and defeat on two occasions. that could be priceless come the end of the year. but let''s look at the flipside. let''s say we could get a few million plus bentley for green. that''s a few million pounds we could add to the maybe 1 million that will be available in the winter for a new striker. that''s the difference between a 1 million pound player and a 3-4 million pound player. that''s a substantial difference in terms of a quality striker. on top of that, like it or not, bentley is one of the top talents in football today. i really really feel that he''s just top class and will come into his own soon -- just watching him you can tell he''s something special -- an england international not too far in the future. of course, we lose green. we have some strong keepers in reserve. it could be worse. if this deal presented itself, it would have to be something to consider very seriously. comparisons: heskey 6 million alan smith 6-7 million viduka 4 million jeffers 4 million? we need to get into that range of price to get a top notch player that will make a difference alongside Hux AND Bents for the future. it all sounds exciting to me until i think of losing green. he''s just been so massive for us. but it still might be right.

I''m willing to go under the assumption that I don''t get to see all of Holt''s contributions during a match. He''s incredibly hard-working...hey even the commentators against Villa said toward the end that they were impressed with just how much ground and work he covers. So, maybe more than any other player, we don''t notice the little things he accomplishes. Still, having said that, it is touch and go on whether he is Prem quality. In general, most of our discussions revolve around the fact that we are missing 1 or 2 key ingredients in our team. Our defence is pretty sound. We know we need a striker. And after that it''s about maybe one more quality midfielder and then I would consider our squad as complete. If we did pick up those two players, I think Holt would end up on the bench. I am very curious to see what Nigel does on Tuesday night. He says he wants to be competitive and so it might be likely that we''ll see the ''next-in-line'' team that he wants to try out and see if it works.

Zip, The 4-4-1-1 is an interesting option. It presents some fascinating line up decisions. Assuming the back four stays the same, it could be: McVeigh, Holt, Francis, Safri; Bentley; Huckerby or McVeigh, Safri, Francis, Huckerby; Bentley; Doc/Leon The thing that bothers me about it is the choice of the lone man up front. I guess it could be Huckerby but he''s so good running from deep that it might not make sense. And if not him, we simply don''t have that quality front man. Hux is probably the best option. Might be an idea to try it.

It''s very interesting to read the posts. Such different views.This is one of the rare times that I got to watch the game on the telly and most of you didn''t.I thought Holty played better than he has been. He is starting to look more comfortable in the Prem and has gained some confidence. Having said that, I think that he deserves a place in the diamond formation but if we switched to a flat 4-4-2, he may still lose out to Safri.Holt had some good forward runs, solid defending, better control on the ball and didn''t give away nearly as many passes in the past.I''ve been ragging on him in the past but need to give credit where credit is due.

Norwich did not play well against Villa. It''s that simple. Worthy can say what he likes and the diplomat in him provided those post-game comments but the reality is that it might have been our worst performance of the season (can''t speak for the Palace match -- didn''t watch it). The diamond formation definitely has its pros and cons. I think, for the most part, the bigger problem is now clearly going forward as opposed to defending -- we''re as good defensively with the diamond as we are with a flat 4-4-2. Who benefits from this formation and who doesn''t? Beneficiaries: a. Bentley. He is better off in the hole role. I''m not sure why everyone was moaning about his performance. It wasn''t brilliant but again, he''s the only player we''ve got with vision and the ability to get past people regularly -- which he does! And he''s not afraid to take a shot -- it''s his penchant for shooting that got us a goal at Newcastle. He needs to keep at it - he hasn''t sorted out where he needs to consistently position himself...I think he finds himself too far back on repeated occasions. But there''s no doubt in my mind that this is the best position for him. b. Drury and Edworthy. Only as it relates to going forward -- they have more space, more freedom to move forward and can make more of an impact. Whether these two should be the right players making forward runs for the club and to be our primary wide threat is another story but their contributions have been more important in the diamond. c. Safri. Sitting in front of the back four is a great role for him. He tackles well, positions well and passes well. It''s a natural role for him. Who Suffers: a. Francis. Seems to me like he is suffering badly in the diamond. It looks like he''s lost. I think he''s confused when he''s not in the absolute centre of the park. We''ve lost his zip, zest, aggression and he just looks out of place. I think his forward runs have been more impressive but then again, no one is looking for him and so he never gets the passes played to him when he is WIDE open with a clear path to goal. b. Huckerby. With the diamond, he has less support when he''s off on his runs. Fewer people overlapping him. Fewer players coming from midfield. Not good for him. I''m really torn between the flat midfield and the diamond. In this, I think Bentley remains the key. If we think he''s going to get there, we should stick with it. If not, we need to continue dabbling with other ideas.

Doherty looked awful yesterday. Simply put, the only thing he can do is head the ball and hold it up. I don''t want to minimize the value of his skills because they are important to any team -- his ability to hold up the long ball from defence (which happens all too often in my opinion) is important to give us breathing room and time to get forward to launch an attack. Apart from that tho, he''s not adding value. Leon, is chasing every ball and generally looks like he''s the energizer bunny -- albeit I''m not sure he knows exactly where he''s going at all times. Seems to me that outside of heading and holding the ball up, he''s better than the Doc in every respect. So it begs the question -- what happens to us if we start Leon? a. He provides us with more attacking power on the ground. He can keep up with Hux. He can be creative to a degree. b. Our aerial prowess up front will be substantially reduced, if not completely eliminated. c. Our ability to give our defence time to regroup will be limited after the clearances from the back. The thing is that we do use the long ball a lot. Our back four do look up, ignore the midfield, and aim for Doherty. If we put Leon in there, they can''t do that anymore. But, at the end of the day, I think we should be willing to risk this. It is very worrisome when you think about just how much possession the opposition will get w/o a target man up there but maybe the approach is: a. 4-4-2. Play Doc. b. 4-1-2-1-2. Play Leon. Let''s see what happens!

What''s the cup match lineup going to be? My guess: Green Helveg Charlton Fleming Drury McVeigh Holt Francis Jonson Svensson McKenzie Subs: Ward Jarvis Huckerby Shackell Brennan Thoughts?

this concept that many players can playin the hole is weird to me. it''s one of the most difficult positions to play well. from what i can tell, the player must be able to: a. move into spaces between midfield and attack extremely well. he has to almost sense the accordion like effect of formations tightening and breathing and find the spot where he should be to collect, and distribute the ball. position play is immense for this role. b. he must have great vision. to get the ball and give himself the time and space to look up, evaluate, and if necessary distribute...and distribute well. more often than for any other player on the team, it''s the final pass to put someone in a great scoring position -- the most difficult pass to make. so you best be a good passer. c. you have to be a good dribbler. once you''ve found the space, it''s your job to move the ball forward, either by dribbling or passing. how you hold and move the ball will help define how far forward the other midfielders move. if you hold on and lose it, and our midfielders haved move forward, we are exposed at the back. and of course, being a good dribbler means you can create. and as the player who may bring the ball forward into the final third, you''re going to get some heavy tackles -- you must be able to evade them well. d. you must have a good long distance shot. part of being a good shot in this role is to be recognized as being a good dribbler so that defenders really dont know whether you are going to shoot or try to go past them. that unknown gives the player the extra micro second to create that little bit of space. it''s not an easy position by any stretch which is why so many teams would LOVE to have a player who can play that position but not many do. Henry can do it but then again, as superman, he plays the role from his striker position. Rooney can. Scholes can. Okocha can. Who else plays it well? The thing is that, when it comes to raw talent, Bentley can. And possibly, to a much lesser degree, McVeigh could cope altho he''s better at getting to the ball first to get past his man as opposed to actually facing up and going past them routinely. In my opinion, Leon cannot -- not even close. He''s a poacher. That''s what he is. And frankly, I don''t think Hux can play it either -- he''s too much of a head-down dribbler...it''s best when he drops deep to start on a mazy run as opposed to consistently being in the hole. Anyway, I just think it''s a tough position to excel in and we should feel lucky that we have 1 player who can play this role....let alone 2 or more.

I agree. Helveg is not here to warm the bench. His time will come and Edworthy will move down to the bench. A quick point on wide defensive cover -- yes, with a diamond formation, you lose some of the cover on the flanks but when you look at how we have played all season, I don''t think it makes much difference. Our approach has been using our fitness to get behind the ball and defend. We''ve let the other team run at us and only when they get near the 18 yard box, do we push and hold our ground. When McVeigh and Bents were on the flanks, this didn''t stop the wide men from other teams -- they just are not good defenders. In fact, I think that against Spurs, we looked BETTER at stopping the wide men because it wasn''t McVeigh and Bents, but rather, Holt and Francis getting back to help the full backs. Safri provides this ability. Our midfield looks tougher with the diamond. And yes, our width is hurt while going forward but when you have Hux, Bents in the hole and the Doc isn''t your #1 option, then you can sacrifice some of that width for the extra possession won in midfield. Besides, if we''re really suffering, we always have the option of being flex and changing during the game. A benefit to Worthy''s squad -- they are versatile. Either Bents of McVeigh can play the hole or move out wide and allow us to back to a flat midfield. Some people on the board have discussed that other players in the squad can play in the hole. I disagree. It''s a specialist position that can only be used effectively by a player with special talent. We only have Bentley for that (and while he hasn''t completely sparkled yet, I just feel that given time, we''re going to see some real magic). It just wouldn''t work as well with other players.

Oh I remember him. Bignosed #4. I hated him. At the time, I hated everything to do with Liverpool. I hated that they won everything. I hated everyone saying that Ian Rush was a legend. I used to think that he was completely over-rated -- the notion being that if you couldn''t score goals at Liverpool, you couldn''t score anywhere. There was never any brilliance to anything he did -- he just tapped it in every time. Bringing back bad memories. Stop it.

This is the type of match we need to win. Villa are good but we are at home and we should win in a close match. A draw is ''acceptable'' but too many draws will get us relegated.

Zippers -- if I were to make a change, what would that be.... I guess I think of it in terms of priorities. One of the most important priorities to me is Bents in the hole. We need to give this one time to gel with the rest of the team. So many teams in the Prem would love to have this type of player to play in this type of role. If he''s in the hole, then it means that we need a midfield trio behind him. Only 3 possibilities for that: Holt, Safri, Francis; McVeigh, Safri, Francis; Helveg, Safri, Francis. I least like the McVeigh one -- leaves us too exposed. So one possible change is Helveg for Holt. Helveg for Edworthy is irrelevant at this stage. Not significant change either way. So, my two changes, if at all (I think I like it as is to be honest) is to swap Helveg in for Holt. And finally, unless Doc is causing substantial problems for Villa, I would bring in Leon at half time and see what he can do for 45 minutes with Hux.

For all the inventiveness this board has for the lineup, I think NW will not change the lineup from last week. Green Edworthy Charlton Fleming Drury Safri Holt Francis Bentley Huckerby Doherty As to Villa''s wide men, as with against Spurs, Holt and Francis will drop back to cover. And besides, Spurs have good wide men -- Worthy would not have known that both Davies and Jackson were out of the starting lineup. Bents will get another shot in the hole I think. But I think Helveg will start to get some more minutes. It''s also almost definite that McVeigh and McKenzie will make it off the bench at some point and my guess is that Helveg will also get a chance.

I dont think you can have only Francis and Safri as our ball winners. It''s too attacking a lineup. Personally, I like the way we played against Spurs a LOT. My only suggested test would be Helveg in for Holt. That would provide experience, strength, tackling and just general cleverness of a very experienced player to add weight to the midfield. We also need to be careful of relying on the longball since that means we''re forced to have a big man up front when it''s possible that we dont. If you have Hux and Bents right behind him with a flexible choice for the other striker (Doc, Sven, Leon etc) then you have more options. So it also means that Safri needs to be able to move forward slightly oterhwise he will be left with picking out long balls. And with Helveg in there, you can always have Helveg and Safri interchanging where appropriate with Francis left to make marauding runs. The Villa games stands to be our most exciting one so far this season. This is the type of team we need to mark ourselves against when playing at home. They are good. But not great. We are at home. If we are to make an impression in this league, we need to win against Villa. A draw would be marginally acceptable. A loss would be very unfortunate.

let''s look at it this way. you put hux on england''s left (the only POSSIBLE position for him to attain) and you dont get any defense. you put wayne bridge on england''s left and you dont get much attacking influence. given who else england has tried in this position, i would put huckerby on as a sub in the 2nd half and watch what he can do. he does, however, have to improve his ability to know what''s going on around him when he''s off on one of these runs and spot players in better positions (which ALWAYS happens because 2-3 defenders inevitably try chasing hux). it would be fun to see it happen. let''s think about what happens later this season if hux has got 10-12 goals by sometime after xmas but before easter. then shouldn''t we be hearing cries for his name on the england team? at least in the squad! i would put him on in place of owen hargreaves any day of the week.

I''m content with Bentley''s performances to date. Not too excited. Not too disappointed. The simple reality is that he and Huckerby are our ONLY players who can actually dribble past people consistently. Bentley routines picks his way past players but how he uses it is still a question. I think it''s partly because he isn''t at Arsenal anymore. With his style, he is used to players who make short, quick passes and then move quickly to a space not too far away to receive another pass and move from there and so on. Our players simply don''t do that nearly as well as the megastars at Arsenal and so Bentley is having a little harder time creating productive partnerships at the club. The logical person to work with Bents on this is Hux. But Darren tends to do more head-down running than the type of things the Bents would be suited to (the Ljungberg, Pires, Reyes style of player...obviously not as good but you know what I mean). Who else is good for this? I don''t know...maybe Safri. Maybe Francis over time. I guess I''m just seeing Bents as a real talent who simply needs more time with this team to mould his game as well as other moulding to him. The reason Wenger let him come to Norwich is that we are the type of place that can help him develop in as close a style to Arsenal as possible. So I believe it''s just a question of time. I think the formation used in the Spurs match is definitely the best one for us. And I think that with time, and another striker signing in the winter, that the combo of Hux, new striker and Bents with Safri, Holt and Francis behind them will be a very strong lineup. *would still consider swapping Holt for Helveg*

Green 9 Edworthy 7 Charlton 7 Fleming 7 Drury 8 Safri 7 Holt 7 Francis 7 Bentley 7 Huckerby 8 Doherty 7 Very solid performance by the team today. Deserved the point and could have gotten three. Main points to take away: a. Thought the formation worked well. It needs a few more games to gel but I think we''re on to a winner here. The sacrifice of width is more than made up with the extra passer in midfield (Safri) and giving Bentley the spot in the hole will create chances. Holt/Francis can get used to playing a bit out of center and Bentley and Hux can develop a threatening understanding. b. Huckerby was heavily featured and played very well. He got an 8 out of 10 instead of 9 because he didn''t put one of his chances away and once or twice, neglected to look up at a point where a teammate was in a scoring position. Still an excellent performance from him but the difference between 3 and 1 point is insignificant and we have to learn to take our chances. His runs were of top quality and rank him as one of the hardest players to defend against in the premiership. Didn''t do his scant England hopes any harm today. c. Hux needs a striker alongside him. I hope NW makes it happen in the next transfer window. Doc huffs and puffs and gives his all but he''s not going to be providing Hux a lot of support. At this point, I would be getting closer to testing Leon alongside Hux for a longer period of time than 10 minutes. To be honest, i''m not that optimistic about that working well either and so a new striker is still definitely on the list. I could see Johannson and Harewood in that partner role. I actually prefer the Charlton striker -- I always got the impression he played a bit like Eidur Gudjohnson and that could fit nicely. d. Best for last. Robert Green. International quality performance. The save from Atouba in particular was breathtaking. Sven -- You can''t leave Greeno out of your squads from now on. Bring on Villa.

Jim -- it''s not about sentiment being a "rude" word. For us all, we can always talk about the stars that are no longer here. Remember the goals scored; the commitment put in. None of that gets minimized by looking at things pragmatically. The problem I find is that I think there''s too much of the "he''s a good bloke and he''s put in a lot for the club, let''s keep him around" feeling. While your sense of our "friendly" club is definitely one of the reasons we all love the team, that form of progressive capitalism simply doesn''t exist in today''s Premiership. I honestly wish it did (everywhere...not just in football) but it doesn''t and if we don''t act appropriately, then we will end up back in Div 1. Worthy''s challenge in this particular regard is clear. How does he keep team spirit sky high while making tough decisions that may not go down well in terms of morale with the lads? With the exception of not being able to nail down a striker before the window closed (a concern that he would admit to as well), he has done a masterful job. He''s bringing in good players. He''s making tough decisions to let people go. He''s not being rushed into blooding Shackell, Jarvis and Henderson too early. He sees that while Leon and Matt did a great job for us last season, we need better talent in the premiership. He knows our backline needed to get younger and better and hence the Mackay for Doherty swap. And he knew that given tight finances, it would be unreasonable to keep Iwan on the payroll.

I think there''s a little too much sentimentality on this board. We all love our team and the players who bleed yellow and green, but sometimes, we are really allowing it to come in the way of good judgment. The reality is that players come and go. Hey, I''m still mourning the loss of Dave Watson, Chris Woods, Robert Fleck etc etc but what can you do? Specifically, with 20/20 hindsight, I think, we, as a board have been not been pragmatic enough in our evaluation of: a. Svensson. Prior to the season there were screams that he should be dropped followed by big chants of support saying that he was definitely good enough. If early season form is an indication, then the naysayers were right -- even tho they were called out as moaners before the season. b. Malky. He has been a great great player for Norwich but now, in the Prem, he was marginal and certainly wasn''t going to get any better at his age. With the versatile squad we have now, with his contract running out, and with youngsters needing space to shine, this was the right move for the club. And frankly, it was the right move for Malky to continue his international career. Not having a chance to prove himself is not the point -- you can''t afford giving peoeple that in the Prem. You have to make decisions and I, for one, am glad that NW did so -- even though I was surprised. c. Roberts. Great fan favorite and legend. But shouts now for his return after his form for Gillingham laughs in the face of the obvious talent jump from Div 1 to the Premiership. d. Holt. Another NCFC rock. He''s had a hard start to the season and with Safri and Mullers returning from injury, first team action might be reduced for Holty. From the performances I''ve seen of him this year, I would give someone else a go. While his commitment has never been questioned, he has proven to have a less than adequate first touch, below standard passing and questionable speed. Any suggestion to the contrary is ignoring the proof on the pitch. It''s possible he needs more time to adjust but that''s the only excuse. Anyway, there are smaller examples of how we are letting our personal feelings and history for the players rule our judgment. Being pragmatic doesn''t mean we''re betraying our heroes -- it just means that we want our club to stay in the Premiership and reach greater heights in the future. I am thrilled that Worthy is making the decisions that he is. He is being level-headed and clear about the direction he wants to take the club in. Ask yourself the question: Within reason, which other managers would you prefer to have as our man? Go, Worthy, go. My two cents.

Malky going to West Ham is an emotional blow....just like Iwan.But this was the right decision. Why:a. Wasn''t certain whether he was up to Prem standards. Frankly, premiership standards are actually higher than most international matchups that happened this week.b. His contract was up in 10 months. Means either extend his contract, let him go on a Bosman, or sell him now. Clearly, he''s getting on in years and an extension was not the right path for Norwich to take for the long-term so what are you going to do...let him go on a Bosman? Take the money. But purely because of the transfer, I now have no doubt that we''ll be seeing Malky in the Prem next season with the Hammers.

[quote]This is a website full of positive thinking, and I think that we will cause an upset. Sure Spurs are up-and-coming, new coach and all. But we too are up-and-coming, fresh from a fortnight break, and...[/quote] Hate to put a dampener on things but Spurs are looking quite lively this year. Their team: Robinson Ifill King Davenport Edman Davies Davis Mendes Jackson Defoe Keane Subs: Kanoute Brown Redknapp Gardner It''s a GOOD side. Santini has bought wildly but well. And Defoe is playing fantastically with Mendes starting to look the part. 2-1 to the Spurs. I''ll be the lone Yellers supporter at teh Spurs pub here in New York.....

i think it''s worth exploring for a friendly or something. but then again, sven is acting pretty conservatively when it comes to picking his team. the fact that he doesn''t have gareth barry in there to help with the left side of midfield makes no sense to me.

Anyone in New York who wants to watch the Spurs match together, lets get in touch. My mate who is a Spurs fan has challenged me to come to the SPurs pub in the east village to stand up for our lads. I plan on being there in yellow gear and frankly, wanted some others to join me! Anyone up for it?

altho this is all really a function of supply and demand. some prices go down. some prices go up. rooney goes up. and since curbishley didn''t get another striker, johannson doesn''t come down unless he really wants out and makes it clear. harewood is a little unclear...that could go either way but i dont think it will be bargain basement guys. the main movement in prices shoudl come for those who have expressed concern and want out of their current situation or, more likely, any player whose contract runs out next summer. those players see their value cut tremendously for the most part in the next transfer window. that''s the main reason i think that NW will be more active than we might think in the next window. he''ll probably pick up a few players and another loanee in the winter. as much as i would like to see him get a striker, i just think it''s not going to quite work out. i wouldn''t mind either johansson or harewood but to be hoenst, i think nemeth is a great player and he would top my list. he''s a great finisher and a strong player. those czechs are quite good.

i like the lineup that Green and Yellow suggested but to be honest, I think it''s just too frail on the defensive end. taking out holt and having bentley and hux track back to be defensive cover just doesn''t cut it. it''s very attacking -- i like it but it could be suicide in the prem. i am growing more and more attached to the notion of a three man midfield with someone behidn the front two. safri was excellent in the second half. picking out passes and stepping back and looking up at what''s going on. holty does not do that and francis doesnt either. you cant have a central midfield that doesn''t have creativity in it (and bents on the far left doesn''t count). if you have a midfield three of a diamond with holt at the back of it and safri and francis in front of him, i think that works. then, the real flex in this formation is that bents and huckerby can switch back and forth between who is up front and who is playing behind the front two. it''s a very tantalizing formation. it does put pressure on us in the sense taht finding width will be difficult but i think over time, we can make adjustments that allow the full backs to move forward at the right time. besides, hux propensity to run from wide positions will keep some of that happening. i would really like to see: GREEN EDW/HELVEG FLEMING CHARLTON DRURY HOLT FRANCIS SAFRI BENTLEY DOC/NEW HUCKERBY