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Yes, it has, rather: There have been two game-changing shifts in English football since world war two. Any assessment of Norwich must take them into account; they were crucial to how we performed. But first, the time before those shifts. English football in the 1950s was rather like the country. We still had clearly-defined classes, and it was the game of the working classes – and (often forgotten) the upper classes. Watched by the working classes but in part run or owned (as with Arsenal) by the upper classes. It was based in the great industrial areas and what are now called the inner cities. And there were great clubs that always seemed to be great clubs. Five of them. Arsenal and Spurs, Aston Villa, Man Utd and Everton. Not for nothing known as the Bank of England club. Not perhaps quite Liverpool, who had a short spell in the second tier and whose dominant days lay ahead. Making up the numbers were slightly smaller clubs, from industrial areas. Birmingham, Wolves, WBA and Stoke from the west Midlands, various east Midlands outfits, Sheffield Wednesday generally as the main Yorkshire representative (Leeds, like Liverpool, was yet to become pre-eminent), the north-eastern triumvirate of Newcastle, Sunderland and Middlesbrough. A clutch of Lancashire mill towns. West Ham as well. And these were part of the bedrock of the game. There were other clubs – sometimes big – that seemed more superficial. Chelsea, particularly. Man City to an extent. They would skeeter across the face of football, occasionally winning something (a cup, normally) and then fall back. But in this elite world Norwich and its like did not figure. To illustrate this, herewith the clubs in the top flight in last season before the sixties: Arsenal, Spurs, Man Utd, Everton, Villa - the Big Five. Bolton, Burnley, Blackburn, Blackpool and Preston – the five Lancashire towns, and all in the top 12. Newcastle from the north-east. Wolves, Birmingham and WBA, Leicester and Forest from the Midlands. Plus Portsmouth, Man City, Luton, Leeds, Chelsea and West Ham. A typical fifties table. Norwich and equivalents nowhere in sight. But there was a storm coming. The first game-changing shift. The decline of British industry. North-eastern shipbuilding. The Lancashire cotton mills. Car production. Even fishing. Grimsby went from having the largest fleet in the world to not having one trawler. Mining, of course, would be later. Steel as well. And the local clubs declined accordingly. Even the Big Five were not immune; Villa, Man Utd and Spurs all spent time outside the top flight. Indeed you could make up a decent top flight out of clubs that have in recent decades spent in the THIRD tier: Villa, Man City, Stoke, Fulham, Blackpool, Bolton, Blackburn, WBA, Birmingham, Wolves, QPR, Forest, Leeds, Cardiff, Leicester, Burnley, Derby, Middlesbrough, Portsmouth, Sheffield Utd, Southampton, Charlton, Sheffield Wednesday and Preston. And – finally - us. This is getting ahead of ourselves but in truth the surprise was not that we fell down to the third tier, but - for a club that spent its first 70 years below the top flight - that it took so long to happen. Back to the past. Into that vacuum caused by industrial decline moved, for want of a better phrase, the Middle Classes. Clubs from areas not tied to one industry, or from agricultural areas. People still have to eat. So 25 years on the First Division table looked like this: 1. Liverpool, 2. Southampton, 3. Forest, 4. Man Utd, 5. QPR, 6. Arsenal, 7. Everton, 8. Spurs, 9. West Ham, 10. Villa, 11. Watford, 12. Ipswich, 13. Sunderland, 14. Norwich, 15. Leicester, 16. Luton, 17. WBA, 18. Stoke, 19. Coventry, 20. Brum, 21. Notts C, 22. Wolves. Tardis a fifties fan forward and he (and it would have been a he) would have thought that a bad joke. The Big Five are still there (like death and taxes) but Southampton second? QPR? Watford? Ipswich? Norwich? Just as important, who is NOT there. Where are Newcastle and Middlesbrough? Anybody from Yorkshire? The Lancashire mill towns? All gone. Burnley, having won the title in 1960, were one game away from non-league football 27 years later. And a look at other top flight seasons would have bemused our fifties fan even more. Bristol City? Brighton? Oldham? Swindon? Oxford? Do they even have a football team in Wimbledon? It is no accident that our best years were the seventies and eighties, edging into the nineties. And that applies to other similar clubs, such as those listed just above. There was a reordering and a kind of gentrified democratisation. As class barriers broke down socially, so they did in football. There is a “but” coming. The second game-changing shift. The sexification of football. TV money. The internationalisation of the English game. Not just players but owners too. Clubs as status symbols for the mega-rich. And this produced another re-ordering, based on how much spare cash there was in the owner’s back pocket, or, more often, their numbered offshore account. So the Big Five were generally still there; as for the rest, it was a question of money. Take Blackburn. A founder member of the League, and champions twice before world war one and not since. They dropped out of the top flight in 1966 and stayed out for 26 years. A classic case of industrial and footballing decline intermingled. Bounced around the second and third tiers. Then got back to the top flight in ’92 and won the Premier League just two years later. And have been in the top flight for all but one year since. How? Jack Walker’s piggy bank. Wigan was a Rugby League town until Dave Whelan decided to change that. An oligarch''s dream turned Chelsea from a music hall joke as The Pensioners into one of the world''s mega-clubs. On the other hand, regard Sheffield Wednesday. Markedly bigger than Norwich historically, but a club – like us - that missed out on the gold rush, and has only survived because the Co-op Bank decided pulling the plug on a much-loved local institution would be bad for business. So in its 107 seasons Wednesday have spent 66 - or 61 per cent - in the top flight. In the last 40 years, only seven seasons, or 17.5 per cent. And eight seasons (including this one) in the third tier. By contrast we have spent half the last four decades in the top flight and merely one season in the third tier. Napoleon supposedly asked if his would-be generals were lucky. Watling, to an extent, and South and Chase were all lucky. They ran the club at the perfect time. There was an opportunity for clubs like us. Not every club took it. There still had to be good managerial appointments. Ipswich had Ramsay and Robson. And we had Saunders, obviously. And Bond. Probably the best choice in the club’s history, since he brought with him (as was South’s intention) the West Ham ethos of passing football that was carried on by the fallible Brown, reached its zenith with Stringer and was pragmatically tempered under Walker. And fortune played a part. Would Phil Neal – Chase’s choice to succeed Stringer – also have led us to heady nights on the continent? The suspicion has to be that Chase got very lucky indeed when Neal (the reason is still publicly uncertain) dropped out of the running when seemingly it was a done deal. Smith and Jones, by contrast, would have failed Napoleon’s test. They inherited a club that was on the slide on the field and off it. A hospital pass. The sky was falling in for us just when the Sky money was falling from heaven. With ITV Digital waiting to happen. For which the word “mirage” implies something way too substantial. To illustrate the Gordon Gekko world with which Smith and Jones have had to cope, some very rough figures. They have, it is generally accepted, put £11m-£12m into the club. Since Delia was a few years ago listed as being worth £25m, that’s a massive percentage of their wealth. Randy Lerner is worth £950m. And has poured £200m (a decent percentage but nothing like Smith and Jones’s) into Aston Villa. And the end result? When he took over Villa had finished 16th in the Premier League. Today, five years on? They’re 14th. Lerner’s money has moved Villa up two places. £100m a place. To change the analogy from Wall Street to Wonderland, you need – like the Red Queen – to run very, very fast just to stay in the same spot. This is not to excuse any mistakes Smith and Jones have made (I count four serious ones) but to point up that they were forced to exist in an environment in which errors were increasingly severely punished. This is a broadbrush statement but we bounced straight backed from an unnecessary relegation from the top flight under South because clubs like us could. We didn’t do the same after a similar relegation under Chase because it was getting more difficult and we didn't after a less avoidable relegation under Smith and Jones because by then it was much harder for clubs like us. In short we got borne aloft by the first shift in English football and got brought low by the second. And since that was written a third change, with clubs being bought not just by rich people, but by rich countries, and with whole banks of lawyers ready to challenge any rules designed to limit their financial muscle. It is said, I may even have said it myself, that, S&J held on too long to an ideal. But the supposed dream solution had kept changing anyway, and becoming more out of reach, even as they stayed in charge.

Have to disagree with that. Thought he was great for us and scored both crucial and fantastic goals.

That would be the period when Forest and Villa won the European Cup, 1p5wich and Goteburg the UEFA Cup, Derby , Leeds and Everton won the league and Norwich, Wolves, Wednesday, Sunderland, Coventry, Wimbledon, Oxford and Luton won FA or League Cups? You’re comparing chalk and cheese

There’s no grownups here just desperate political weirdos I repeat, we are all laughing about you behind your backs. Your closest friends and family are laughing at you behind your back and are also a little bit concerned you might go mental one day with a pen or something.

Thanks to everyone who came to support us, a wonderful turnout of around 250 ish fans, the feedback has been brilliant. Im my opinion probably one of the best events we've ever had, the two guests were humble, honest & humourous and Darren Eadie was the perfect host. A summary of the evening by Connor plus some pictures will be on our website soon. Diane on behalf of ncfsc

..............and pretty worrying how necessary Gunn is to our defence 🙁

Hopefully not. He was **** on Tuesday (again) and cost us two goals by being ****. JHT doesn't seem to accept poor performances (has been happy to hook people at half time if they're not performing). I'm hoping that after Long's display on Tues, Mair will get the start for Boro. I've no idea if Mair is any good, but he can't be much worse than Long. I wouldn't be much worse than Long tbf.

Thanks, Nuff Said. The above were specifically the questions asked by the audience members on the night, which took place in the second hour of the evening. The first hour was a more fluid conversation between Johannes and Glen, with Darren Eadie asking his questions. Which Connor's article covers. As you say, transcribing the answers for a two-hour event isn't practical. Plus, as this is an event to raise money for the Community Sports Foundation, we really want to encourage people to come along on the night to ask their own questions and hear the answers in person.

There are some clubs in Europe, Italy for example, where there are more than one Ultra's group and they are divided on political lines. There's always a dominant one, and as a result they tend to be considered either a 'left wing' or a 'right wing' club, but it won't mean all of their fans are left wing or right wing. Lazio for example have Ultras who have long been associated with fascism and worship of Mussolini, Di Canio flashed them a salute once didn't he, but they also have the LAF, an anti-fascist group with several hundred members. Similar applies at most of the big Italian sides. If Along Come Norwich are positioning themselves as the lefties, may I propose a second group for the right wingers called Stay Out of Norwich. They can then embark on purile sticker wars. Next time ACN see a sticker they don't like, they can simply sticker over it, and vice-versa. ACN Norwich can have the left side of the Barclay, because they are the lefties of course, SOON can have the right side because they are the right wing. Chants of "we're the left wing, we're the left wing, we're the left wing over 'ere" and "we're the right wing, we're the right wing, we're the right wing over here" would be amusing. I'll remain strictly non-partisan and outside of both of then. Unless somebody wants to start a third Ultras group called Centrist Norwich, with a big banner saying 'David Milliband Would Probably Have Been Alright-ish', I'd join that one. We'd sit in the middle of the South Stand somewhere (facing the centre circle obviously). ACN can stick their refugees are welcome everywhere, SOON can stick their sink the boat stickers everywhere, CN if we really have to get involved can put our 'Lets open up legitimate channels for asylum applications so they don't need to try and cross the channel in a blow up rubber dinghy, but agree a sensible quota to ensure that we don't overwhelm our public services' stickers somewhere in the middle, ours will be printed on seeded kraft paper of course.

On Sunday my father died aged 90. Throughout his life he supported Norwich and introduced me to the highs and lows of being a supporter. I have subsequently introduced my son. He was born into a farming family and was one of nine in the Waveney valley where you either go north or south. He would bike eight miles to Diss train station to attend games as a boy because his father would not take him in the car as he was an 1p5wich fan. His fondest memories of following the team were undoubtedly the 59' cup run. I am unsure how many years Dad was a season ticket holder for, being a season ticket holder was more rare in his early life and not necessarily needed to attend, but he regularly followed Norwich for over 80 years. After the South Stand was built my father, son and me were able to sit together for almost twenty years which was very special. That to me was so nostalgic as I first stood on the terraces in the South Stand with Dad in the 60s and early 70s. Most seasons we would go to a few away games as well and we have witnessed some incredible games through the years. The day at Wembley in 2015 was incredible and I have a fabulous photo of us all on the platform at Wembley Park. The night at Portaloo Road was also very special when we beat them 5-1! The club has lost a loyal supporter but he has passed the baton onto me and my son.

Cheating **** can get to ****. I'll boo him. ****.

Didn’t know Long was Belarusian.

Many thanks for all of your kind words following the death of my Dad. OTBC!

Anyone who thinks Hitler was a Socialist needs to read this. https://www.britannica.com/story/were-the-nazis-socialists

I can predict the sort of people you follow on Twitter. Bet you are the sort of person who claims 'it's right there in their name' about the Nazi's 🤦‍♂️

Gunn senior for me, he’d block most shots.

Shouldn't be a problem as you won't be at the game anyway

The odds are that it would not have worked. Even Southampton who had some apparently good rich owners, after a few years of investment went into administration - and the football league is littered with clubs that have suffered untold damage from rich speculators. Blackburn, Hull, Cardiff are three that come to mind, although there are plenty more, including our friends down the A140. If DS/MJW were over protective, that to me was better than just selling because we needed money, with all the pitfalls we can see from other clubs. Even Brighton who have managed to establish themselves in the PL did it on the back of one of their own fans, not some outside investor - someone who cared deeply about his club. And as you mentioned the 2000's - in our case once the difficult spell 2004-2009 occurred at a time when the whole of the football world had to tighten their belts, after that we saw 2 successive promotions, 3 successive seasons in the PL, one relegation followed immediately by promotion, followed by a rebuild with a terrific set up for getting promoted again twice. Along the way, Wembley success and some good memories from the PL and in cup games too. It really seems to me that money is not the answer. It may appear to be on the surface - money means buying better players after all - but there is more to a football club than that, especially a club like Norwich. DS/MJW may have stayed too long, or maybe not - I don't think it's for me to say - what I do know for sure that we are a better club for them having stayed - and we have a bright future as a result.

No. The social club organises live social events, which anyone can join in. We don't have membership or subscription fees. Making our events open to everyone. I totally understand what it's like for fans living away from Norfolk, having lived away for years myself. We hope that our website articles and photos of our events give a taste of what it's like to be there. But social club events remain very much an 'on the night' experience. Peter, in behalf of NCFSC.

Without wanting to disparage the departed, you’re heaping praise towards a man who implied a share buyback by the Club, who then sent out cheques from his own company. I don’t recall any forthright explanations from him for overseeing police horses charging towards fellow fans down Carrow Road, either, such was the discontent about what was happening, both on and off the pitch at the time!

Thanks for your response; agree with what you say. I suppose your last paragraph highlights my concern in that it's all up in the air. Perhaps I'm being unrealistic to expect a clearer pathway as to our GK strategy. I don't think Gunn's position has changed as we were never going to sign better, at least yet, but not before his contract ends. If he's hoping for a lot more money then one assumes he's not going to get it here. I suppose he could land a backup role at a Premier League club, which probably won't hurt his international aspirations. Not you specifically, but it seems a bit daft to hammer our backup keeper when he's only likely to play the odd game. He's now played two and a half, with presumably (hopefully) only one more to go. It's almost as though some were champing at the bit to have a go at him. I think I've only seem Mair play once and that was a penalty shoot out in a play-off final. I've no idea if he's any good.

"Do you have a national-socialist in your family? Then wow them this Christmas with their own Reform Party sticker book. See if you can collect all 5 MPs and their hangers on, media friends and sundry halfwits. For an added bonus see if they can get all of Tommy Robinson's numerous aliases. What better way to relax after a day of setting fires to things."

What's nauseating is your grasp of the business aspect of football. The two dynasty you allude to are chalk and cheese. The fact that binners managed to win the league, and we came close, should tell you that. The three promoted teams from last season have so far won two games between them, both by Leicester. There is no such thing as a level playing field anymore.

I was lucky to have a few words with Thorup at the end and said , like you do, how brilliantly well I thought he’s doing. He gripped my shoulder and said NO!! it’s how well we’re all doing - players , fans , back room staff etc. Christ - got to love that !! 💛💚

So, a bit of a 'stating my own biases' here. I saw these stickers at Derby and when I had a chance ripped a couple down. I don't like them. I don't like the club badge next to pictures of Farage specifically. I don't like the idea it suggests Norwich City FC as a whole are 'on the charge' with that ****. I've also got no doubt the people sticking these up have probably at some point complained about 'too much politics in football.' On the flip side, outside of doing what I did, I'm not really sure what can be done about it. I don't like reform but I don't think people should be reported to authorities or banned from going to games for supporting a political party I don't like or agree with.

We got to the playoffs because Sargent returned from Injury. Without him we were abysmal.

Kenny is out scoring Nunez in every match, @hogesar has the stats. So basically don’t worry.

As much as its not good news to have these two players out, it gives the others a chance to get a run in the team and get up to speed. Hopefully Slimane will only improve and Long's confidence isnt too bad after recent events. Trying to remain positive, but injuries are gonna happen this season and it could be worse.

Consider the timing-Gunn went off in the first match after the announcement of Long’s new contract-did he split his sides laughing? On a serious note-we bought some huge terracotta pots for a work colleague when she got married-I carried them down two flights of stairs for her. Late at night the following day I woke up, unable to breathe and imagining that I was having a heart attack or something. When I got to A&E I was told that I had damaged my intercostal muscles, presumably carrying the pots. And less seriously, I got locked out of our property on Tuesday night as my wife had left the key in the lock of the garden gate. I climbed on to the wall and tried to lean over the fence to remove the key-I felt a slight movement in my chest-it’s still quite sore today so I’ve possibly bruised a rib or something. Injuries around this area affect you even when you’re simply breathing so for a football player they will have a much more serious impact.

This is not good. It’s been pretty illuminating to see how much Nunez brings to our attack.

No worries, Greavsy.

many moons ago we treated our friends to a birthday meal in Delias restaurant. Our friend is a Reading fan and they were about to play Swansea in the Play Off Final. MWJ, Delia and McNally were sitting a couple of tables away and word must have got to Delia that a Reading fan was present, toward the end of the evening a pissed (not tipsy) Delia came over to our table to talk to the Reading fan, she waxed lyrical about Reading and what a wonderful club they are and what a wonderful man John Madeski is. She went on to say she wanted Reading to win (no problem with that), by now MWJ had joined her just as she started a diatribe on Swansea being Welsh and they shouldn't be in the English league and should play in their "own league", the way she put the emphasis on the word "Welsh" led MWJ to gently remind her that we was born near Swansea..............

I was thinking in addition to existing, in person attendance. The admin / infrastructure may be prohibitive too.

That's a fair comment. Question for the organisers: Is there a online option, via teams /zoom etc for non resident fans? Obviously for an 'admission' fee.

Fair enough, although the 7 hour round trip makes it difficult!

Post of the week

With respect, I think you completely ignore how much football in this country has radically changed during those two periods, particularly with regard to club ownership and financing. Football in that second 26-year period has become a financial sewer that has destroyed the competitiveness of the top tier (and cup competitions) compared to the the first 26-year period you identify. The season beginning fundamental aspiration of the majority of PL clubs is now survival, not a top four finish, let alone a chance of winning the league. Delia and Michael have provided excellent stewardship of our club through a traumatic period in the history of English football for clubs of our size and appeal. The lower leagues are littered with former top-tier teams that have been wrecked by asset stripping and irresponsible owners. Delia and Michael are yellow and green to their core, and have bequeathed a club that still owns its ground, owns its first-class training facilities, has a first-class academy system, signs multi-million pound players, is financially sound, and has persistently been in contention for promotion to the PL. My cousin who has the red of Charlton Athletic running through his veins says he would have loved to have owners like Delia and Mike running his club, and I'm sure there are many fans around the country who would share that sentiment.

He doesn’t really make mistakes (the penalty aside. He just doesn’t save stuff he really should do. It reminds me of when we had below par keepers in goal before. Gallagher was the same. McGovern too on occasion. A shot on goal comes in and you just think “he will save that” and then he doesn’t.

Look at the 26 years from 1972 and the 26 years after under S&J. The years before, 3 league Cup Finals, 2 FA Cup Semi Finals, 3 top 5 finishes in the top league and a run in Europe. Yes football has changed but the brown nosing towards S&J is nauseating.

time to go, amigos. Back to the containment board with you.

I think it's specifically because it's a high profile former footballer, from a big club who has been tagged as a future manager. I've no doubt if Thorup and Knapper had hired a random Danish guy or Carl Robinson when he left Birmingham it wouldnt be a story.

I do agree that Farage isn't 'far right.' although he's probably the furthest right mainstream politician of my lifetime. I absolutely do not get the above impression about Farage though. He's quite good at playing the blokey bloke but when he's put under scrutiny he tends to get tetchy and can lash out as has been seen in quite a few interviews. I don't see him as some bloke who is would be happy to have a chat and hear out other viewpoints. Farage is a populist at who works best in an echo chamber and struggles outside of it. Incidentally this tetchiness is a problem of quite a few of our modern political classes. It was a problem Sunak had, Badenoch has it (it'll seriously hinder her time as leader if she wins the election), Corbyn definitely had it.

So sorry for your loss Sunday will be an emotional day for you. I was lucky back in 1978 my mate at schools dad was a Norwich fan and took us to see us draw 3-3 with the great forest side of the time. My dad then took us to Ipswich which at the time was nearer to Braintree ( still is) and Norwich got battered 4 nil if I remember that day. We also had a teacher at school who used to bring me and my mate a programme back each that had cost him 2p each. My youngest daughter and son now as passionate about it as me

Your the one muddying the waters, trying to argue that 'far right' is far narrower than it is, suggesting that you have to aspire to be modern day Hitler etc to count as it. The far right is an accepted spectrum. It's not unique or limited to Nazi copycats. If going around using aggression and/or violence to reinforce your rhetoric, you don't "creep" into being far right. Especially if groups you are part of throw fascist salutes too.

Nicely thought provoking Robert. In amongst the conjecture on this thread that are some standout facts and you touch on a few. We have had good times and bad times under D and M. The good times are been properly celebrated by D and M as they are undoubted fans . Not many owners have the passion for their club. The bad times include the worst league position in my living memory of the 50+ years I've been a City fan. Under their stewardship I saw us win leagues and playoff finals. In the last visits to the Prem, we couldn't compete because our pockets were not deep enough. So , as with most things, there is good and bad, and the nine or so years between Worthy and Lamberts promotions did include a fair amount of indifferent. If I was going to mark their tenure out of 10 I wouldn't know where to start.

I do have an awful lot of respect for what Delia and MWJ did here. No doubt they are huge figures in the clubs history and should be remembered fondly. I'm not sure I agree we really punched above our weight under them though? On occasion yes, certainly the final two seasons under Lambert and the first promotion under Farke. But we also punched under our weight for a number of seasons, especially in the horrendous Grant/Roeder/Gunn years. I'd argue their legacy will be one of consistency but not advancement and probably that they hung on a bit too long to fight a battle they could never win. I am glad they're stepping away now though- with how things were going towards the end of Webber's time and the general sense of antipathy they were showing towards sections of the fanbase I think it could have gotten quite ugly.

Thanks for that Mutley. So much of what we love about being NCFC fans is the people who share that love with us. My dad had to work Saturdays so all of my memories of being with him are at the few evening matches we attended in the late 1950's and Early sixties. The first ever floodlit match is one that particularly sticks in my mind. I began taking my own son when he was only about 8 years old and we laughed and cried together for the next forty seven seasons until I lost him two years ago. Carrow Rd will always be the place I feel closest to him.

A real world where you buy shares in a football club and expect to make a return on your investment? 🤔

Bet your shoulder feels sore this morning! I can imagine it was a vice-like grip 😆

Do it Nesto, I avoided so many places for a long while after my wife passed away, fearing the emotional reminders...they are now happy memories, being relived with other people.