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That's how it felt yesterday, all those of persuasions other than NCFC couldn't understand why we sacked Wagner, saying we should be happy with getting in the playoffs, etc., etc.. As a long suffering Norwich fan of 30+ years, I just find it incredibly refreshing that we acted quickly for the first time that I can remember. In the past I feel that the 6th place finish could have blinkered those in charge and we'd be in the usual situation of getting to November mid-table. Instead, I'm already looking forward to the fixtures and a fresh start. OTBC.

I think they just ran out of gas to be honest. Not really being able to rotate much down the stretch really did not help matters, and chuck in that a few were coming back from injuries and realistically, we were never physically going to be at our peak.

Two years since relegation, two years striving desperately to regain Premier League status…. no development, both Smith and Wagner tasked with promotion, not the team, not the philosophy, the identity, just promotion! Picking what they considered the best team for each match, not playing youngsters, not signing potential, but signing ageing pro’s on ridiculous contracts and loaning players we didn’t need. Apparently, (based on the comments on this forum) with the support of most of the fans, too impatient to see a bigger picture and too desperate to remain on the gravy train that is the EPL. Despite glaring evidence that this team was never anywhere near good enough during this whole time, the club persevered, the fans believed and all of a sudden we were (somehow) on the cusp of that so called promised land again. But we weren’t really and had we achieved it, the task ahead of this club would have been massive, but impossible….most on here couldn’t see it though…. We have to go up it’s the only way to survive. But most of you were desperate (are desperate) for the money….. how will we survive now? …. and where are we now? No money apparently, no manager, no identity, no philosophy, too many old and tired players, fans concerned and expectant we’ll lose our best players and otherwise players out of contract. We're having to start again! When all this time, we could have developed again. Right now, we’d still be in the Championship awaiting next seasons fixtures. Two seasons ago with the likes of Sara, Nunez, Omobamidele, Gunn, Aarons, Cantwell, Gibbs, Idah, Tzolis, Rowe and Sargent (young, hungry players with energy and hope) we had an opportunity to use the parachute payments properly to help us develop a new side, a new identity but we didn't, we wanted the EPL money so desperately, we persevered with Gibson, Giannoulis, Hanley, McLean, Pukki, Marquinhos, Ramsey and (if he had been half-fit) Hayden. We still didn't find a proper CDM either. That lot were never going to be good enough but we carried on regardless and most of you believed it was the only way. What’s gone wrong? In this week’s statement on Wagner’s release, the club stated ‘“We remain committed to progressing our football club, in both the short and long-term, working through a diligent and thorough strategy’. What progress, what strategy? The club mis-managed relegation big time and lets face it, the past 3 seasons have not been fun have they, the fans haven’t really had an affiliation with this team. I don’t think the club have learned a thing from either the promotions or the relegations and there was so much experience and lesson in there to help us improve and progress. Now we start this process again with little money, no parachute payments and a likelihood we will lose a couple of useful players. Hopefully, this will force development but that is always going to be our only way. Thankfully, we do have some good potential coming back from loans, some good players we need to keep and hopefully they will appoint a manager committed to developing something just like Daniel Farke was. I am more excited now than if we were heading to Wembley next week.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. One of the most embarrassing big game performances I can remember from us since Fulham and it’s not like we don’t have history. That was arguably our strongest side and we completely no showed.

A bizarre post, surely a rise from near the bottom at Christmas to 6th is evidence of achievement, not a reason to sack somebody.

This is an interesting point worth discussing. I considered the state of things in January as we brought only SvH in and many couldn't understand why we weren't 'going for it'. Although we ended up sneaking into the playoffs, I thought it was probably right that a continuing & potentially costly scramble to get a 25% chance to go up probably wasn't in our best long-term interests. Now it goes without saying, a rebuild would be easier with PL money and that would have been preferable. But those were long odds to bet on. It's short-termism writ large as we've repeatedly tried quick-fixes over the past two seasons to stretch and claw after promotion. Ultimately this has led to Smith, Wagner, Barnes & Duffy, no pathways to the first team for the youth, Gibbs as a striker, 7 players at left back, the list goes on. You could almost say all the wonky decisions of the past 2 years culminated in that performance at Elland Rd. We are in need of a true reset. This will probably have to take shape over longer than a single season; the fans will have to find their patience again. I'll probably be slated for 'Little Norwich' mentality, but a 12th place finish with a clear plan and obvious good foundations to move forward with would be better than our current muddled reality.

I just had a peak at the twtd (I feel grubby now), but they really are a strange bunch. People on there are declaring that McKenna to Brighton would be a sideways step! Lolz

He's a classy guy, just not right for us.

Feels instinctively like a great move for him and a great move for Brighton. Really hope it happens for both their sakes and absolutely no other reason.

Let's be honest, if Brighton want McKenna then he'd be stupid not to take it while his stock is high. It could be their 'Buendia' moment.

Yeah I thought that came across loudly.

But the need for experience was genuine and when a manager only has a year contract evidently his focus will be on results not strategy and player development.

Describing what McLaren did at Boro and Twente as "limited success" is pretty bizarre to be honest.

I’m not sure where you get weak championship from. All 3 relegated clubs were stronger and more established Prem teams than the promoted ones. Hence they largely dominated the top of the table ( with that annoying cuckoo from down the road). Middlesbrough had a decent squad but badly underachieved, especially at the start. West Brom were a standard top half of the championship team as we’re Hull. I think to pretend it was a weak year is highly inaccurate. Next year on the other hand??

Jesus wept

I'll give you Brian Kidd, but McLaren and Queiroz were absolutely not "pretty rubbish as managers". McLaren flopped for England but won a decent trophy for Boro and led them to a UEFA Cup final. He also led Twente to their first ever Dutch title ahead of the likes of Ajax, PSV and Feyernoord. Queiroz failed at Real Madrid but is an accomplished international manager.

Well there was no belief from Knapper that we would make the playoffs so consequently the plans from January were for another season in the Champs. Everything I saw pointed to a siege mentality to finish in the top six and after that ‘job done’. As I’ve said elsewhere I think making the play offs was probably a bit of an annoyance as the plans were already underway for a restart in the champs next season and could even have included input from someone lined up to replace Wagner.

The question for me to many of these (and let's be frank) long term sack Wagner fans is how many seasons will you give any new manager to 'improve' our position - which has to be nothing short of promotion. I already think next season will now be rebuild / change of direction and likely mid-table finish. I hope I'm wrong. It may well be the case of out of the frying pan into the fire - or better the devil you know.

How so, we finished 26th!

Alan Brazil. Make him player manager and stick him in goal, nothing would get past him.

Greatest radio commentary ever. Germany win the ball back in midfield. Kuntz to Freund. The pause after Kuntz was perfect

Alonso managed the Sociedad reserve team who play in a 2500 seat stadium, and had an average age of around 22/23. It's not a senior men's team objectively, more akin to managing an U21 or academy team. I don't think Cuesta will succeed because he's at Arsenal, I have no idea whether he would even succeed at all. I don't think I've seen anybody saying he will succeed. What I've seen people saying, and what I'm saying, is he's a gamble worth taking. The more you read about him, the more his character stands out as being exceptional. There's a reason he has got to where he is, at such a young age. He started coaching at 15 when he realised he wasn't going to make the standard he wanted as a footballer. He has scrapped, fought and hustled his way into a host of big clubs, blown people away at every single one of them, and is renowned as being tactcally astute and a fantastic communicator. Mourinho's trajectory was incredibly similar. Someone, somewhere will take a chance on him, it might as well be us - what do we have to lose? The key, Cuesta said, is to convince people completely of your idea. “It is about believing in an idea from day one,” he wrote. “Knowing how to convey it to the players and making them believe in it, infecting the fans with your enthusiasm, getting your players to play each game as if their lives depended on it, mastering the media to convey the message that you want and knowing how to manage the success of a team that is not used to it.” Yet for all his words learned and written, Cuesta needed a foot in the door. He searched every Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid coach he could find on Twitter and sent all of them the same message, each with the same sign-off. “If you need someone to put out the cones,” he wrote, “I’m here”. Nobody replied, except one, a youth team coach at Atletico Madrid, who invited Cuesta to help with the club’s under-9s before letting him take sole charge of the under-13s. Cuesta took the roles seriously. “We used to ask Carlos if he wanted to go out in Madrid and he would always say no, because he had a match in the morning,” says Estan Rodriguez, one of Cuesta’s closest friends. “We used to tease him that while we were out drinking, he was changing nappies, because the teams were so young. It was always serious for him, always a passion.”

By that logic, Xabi Alonso was also a poor shout for Leverkusen to be fair. Only ever managed youth teams at Real Madrid and Real Sociedad's B-team. Objectively, the most similar career path to Cuesta that I can think of, factoring in calibre of clubs and roles... would be Mourinho when Porto appointed him and we all know what happened there. Of course it's a lottery, like any manager hiring will be.... but I guess it depends on your appetite for risk. Cuesta is a boom or bust gamble. I'd throw the dice.

No, but it's well known that players and staff treat each other well and there's respect and focus on bringing through young players. All good values for a sporting director and head coach to share at a club like this. Personally, I just want to go to games and be entertained and to admire players, not wonder how the hell they've got a contract at this level. Success will just occur as a by-product of that.

RIP your google algorithm

I think this season has been the one where the general media has somewhat caught up with the fact that the gulf between Premier League and Championship is growing worryingly wide.

Look he was obviously going if we didn’t get promoted. Aside that he is too nice a guy to have a pop at the club. Is he entitled to say he did the job with at least one hand tied behind his back and was essentially on a hiding to nothing. Last season we finished 13th and this season we have made the playoffs. With a worse squad of players and a squad where 5 of our top scorers have missed large chunks of the season. Sargent missed 23 games, Rowe 15, Sainz 14, Barnes 12 and Idah 19 games. Last night and over the last three games the team looked jaded and lacking energy. What happened in January the squad was weakened rather than strengthened. Leaving fewer and fewer options. Will be interesting to see how it plays out over time.

Johannes Hoff Thorup’s yella and green army…….can’t see it catching on tbh.

For me it's all about the journey. You don't judge a song by it's final note. No one can take away those championship title winning seasons, the joy of watching Emi and Pukki on the pitch, those Mario Vrancic goals, the enigma that was Stiepermann, the South American influence from Sara and Nunez, the Man City win, Sarge's freak goal at Watford, The cup win at Spurs, The continued derby dominance ... There's just so much that was delivered to us as fans under Webber. Yes it turned to ****, but things come in cycles, and we've now got a new man at the controls, new owner incoming and a new coach due to be appointed. I'm looking forward with excitement.

Luckily, teams scout players based on more than just their last game. I think £15m - £18m is achievable for Rowe if more than one club are interested. Sara is easily a £20m player. There are some concerns about how much money Prem teams have to spend with PSR kicking in for many. But don’t think the above valuations are unrealistic in the current market.

Good god no we don’t need to go backwards

To an established premier League side with more money, better facilities, better players, more chance of winning things and/or gaining a European place, furthering his managerial career and keeping his own stock high if he does well? Who knows.

Come on Brighton, you know it makes sense 👍

He'd be mad not to take it. Absolutely mad. Brighton have a good, established PL team. Potter went to Chelsea from there and De Zerbi is being linked to all sorts of jobs. It's the perfect stepping stone club for him.

Was there ever a worse away-end than at the Manor Ground? Absolutely dreadful place

I mean you could equally flip it and say Webber went for someone who had proven he could deliver playoffs and, moreover, actually delivered playoffs. Whereas Knapper promoting a friend to a position he's never had before and has no experience in. For the record, I have absolutely zero problem with either.

No point selling if that’s all we get, Sara is worth 25 on his own.

It's always the narrative. Wagner pretty much achieved his objectives. He did it by creating a siege mentality with his senior players. I doubt he could have done it any other way. So in that respect it's harsh.

Jumpers for goalposts...

i think you are right , if Knapper had sacked Wagner when he arrived his New man was not ready to take over , i am sure it will Announced as soon as the PL season is over that the Arsenal guy is moving here , Wagner was far better than a stop gap / caretaker manager so that's why Knapper left it ?

Cifuentes has done well at QPR - if you're praising Rohl for saving Sheffield Wednesday then Cifuentes deserves similar, if not quite as effusive, praise for keeping that QPR side up too.

You're right they all together and said "Right lads who want's to either become unemployed or take a serious paycut? Let's lose!"

Seems to me we clearly need a re-build and change of direction. If that means a mid-table finish next season, I'm fine with that, as long as there's a sense that the new team (Knapper/new head coach) are building something. I accept that others won't be, though. Think it's important that someone at the club gives the fans a sense of what the new project is.

I’ve just got the horrible feeling next season we’ll be sat lower mid table wondering what could have been if we hadn’t binned him. Both Smith and Wagner have been sacked now with the team in the playoffs so this new bloke has better hit the ground running

A very dignified statement, in keeping with his genuinely decent character https://www.leaguemanagers.com/latest-news/david-wagner-statement

it's out of sight

Willy Smallbone and Wolfswinkel would've made a great pairing.

I think it depends on what Knapper wanted from him. Certainly when considering what happened the previous season and also how badly hit with injury the team was, combined with trimming a bloated squad, he did pretty well to get 6th out of the team, even if the "scrambling" nature of the second half of the season was exposed at the back end with fatigue. On league performance alone, he could feel slightly hard done-by, as could Liam Rosenior at Hull. But I suspect he already knew his days were numbered and pride meant he tried everything he could to get us as high up as he could. Said in another thread that he can leave with his head held fairly high. He shouldn't see a reputational loss due to this showing.

Although I get the sentiment of clearing decks. Releasing a relatively young left back who has good experience in the Championship seems a pretty brain dead decision to me.