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Blame refereeing standards for some of the issue. Player does his best to stay on his feet in the area despite being fouled - nothing given Player goes to ground easily instead of staying on his feet - instant penalty What incentive is there for honest, hard work and sportsmanship when it gets you nothing in return from the ref each time?

Ah yes, we must ignore the poverty in this country beacause another country has it worse.

Upsetting Birmingham fans is like upsetting fans of Bingo by calling the numbers incorrectly. Todd will 'upset' far bigger, better and more relevant in the years to come! They'd love him in their side.

Maybe if they didn't try kicking lumps out of skillful players they wouldn't go down as often.

Just lovely really . Comforting .

The measures being voted on were to extend the scheme that was in place over the summer holiday until Easter 2021. They weren’t intended to end long term poverty. They were intended to be because hundreds of thousands, potentially millions of parents who were employed six months ago now aren’t or shortly won’t be through no fault of their own. Aside from that, are kids more likely to stay in school if (a) they’ve been getting free school meals over the holidays or (b) they haven’t been getting free school meals over the holiday and have gone and got a job at 14 instead in order to feed themselves?

and how do you think he came about... have a read up on history before commenting you ignorant prat.

All measures appear to be different stopgaps to try to minimize both deaths and economic ruin in some unknown balance, whilst waiting for an actual vaccine to appear AND be proven effective. NZ have been very effective in their measures, but as ICF rightly points out, it's far easier for them to do this than it is for the UK, helped at the same time by people who actually LISTENED to the rules and followed them correctly. We've had marches against face masks, people refusing not to go for a drink, gyms refusing to close, people socialising regardless of lockdown rules, covid deniers who claim it's purely fake news, all against a backdrop of a government that seems to regularly ignore expert advice whilst ensuring they overspend on simple things like excel spreadsheets, and making sure that lucrative contracts for PPE go to their chums regardless of their ability to actually supply them! No social gatherings unless you want to join Boris and chums in a grouse hunt, no breaching lockdown unless you have to drive hundreds of miles to test your eyesight, no shaking hands unless you're the PM (who then catches Covid), the whole thing is a colossal farce. Why does everything have to be in the background, why can't groups like SAGE simply come out publicly immediately after advising the government and say "We told them to lockdown based on our expertise, knowledge and projections and they totally ignored us!"? Like many, I simply don't know what to believe any more, but what I do know is that as a member of a higher risk group I'm more concerned about getting Covid and possibly dying from it, then I am about pubs closing and people having to restrict their socialising for the near future. But that's just me, other people could feel totally the opposite, but I do question why I have to keep working and living in fear each day whilst others blithely don't worry about it and instead want to moan they can't nip for a pint...

MOTM for me. I've been a big critic and didn't want him to start today but he was our best player tonight in my eyes.

An absolute thorn in Birmingham’s side. Good to have him back.

I often like to take a look into our opponent's forums after a game to get a view from the 'other side.' I did this with a Brum forum after last night's encounter. They (the Brum faithfull) were as obsessed with Cantwell as many on this forum seem to be. Almost every posting referred to him, some with praise, most with derision. The comments were also rife with comparisons with Grealish, their absolute hate figure. Two seasons ago Norwich City was all about Teemu Pukki, now it seems that young Cantwell has assumed that mantle among opposing fans. The talent, the fame, the wealth, the hair, the obvious flamboyance all provoke envy among those who's lives are lit up by the highlight of a football match on a Tuesday night. I sense a degree of purposefulness on the part of both Cantwell and Grealish, and many others before them. It's showing off to a degree, but may be these successful youngsters have a right to act the way they do. Clearly both are extroverts who want to be noticed and to stand out, knowing full well this rankles among opponent fans, and even elements of their own support. I do not think that Todd Cantwell was particularly guilty of unreasonable play acting during last night's game, I 've seen worse on a weekly basis in PL highlights. His style and looks make him conspicuous, especially when he plays as well as he did, and he sure got a battering.

Hi TRF What I have said all along is there are 2 different arguments, the economy and health we each have the one that matters to us as our top priority. China for instance managed both, but in the West would we keep to a proper lockdown and then real social distancing and have our neighbour thrown in prison for breaking the rules for a good reason, probably not. Here we have argued over both and ( in my opinion ) not succeeded with either. Unfortunately by not dealing with either this is where mine and your problems are. I appreciate people will die from other things, but I don’t know the answer as if you have cancer for instance and catch Covid that it is not good, as now shown on many cancer wards. The economy will be in a total mess, but what do you do ? Let the people up North starve whilst telling them they can’t work to protect the Southern cities. The only answer I know is get the virus under control is the only way to stop people dieing, becoming unwell, shortening people’s lives ( nobody knows yet the after effects of having Covid ), and to start repairing the damage that has been done to the economy. Our views ( and both should be respected ) are totally different. Mine is we should have locked down a month earlier, we should have come out of lock down a month later, we should have had a circuit break 4 weeks ago and track and trace should have been up and running properly. My conclusion and method had we have suppressed the virus then our economy could have recovered. The other view of course is we should never have done that, we should have let the virus run through the population, kept everything open and the economy would not have suffered. Only my view but there would still have been the excess deaths amongst for instance cancer sufferers as if they caught Covid what would their chances be ?. The likelihood is the mental health of just as many would have suffered being terrified of the disease and would the economy really not have suffered, I don’t know. So for me I have no idea which way was best. Trump tested a Nation by using the let it run through the population theory, we will see how that went down with the people in 2 weeks. Brazil has done the opposite still I wonder what their results are on people being tested for cancer, or having it catching Covid and dieing. I suspect ( but I don’t know for certain ) they are worse than ours. So my point is nobody knows which way is correct, that is something for history to tell us. I was asking your solutions as I was genuinely interested. To me my solution is getting the vaccine out there, but even then we are talking next summer before it takes enough effect to alter where we are, and ( again my opinion ) people giving false info on the vaccine will delay people having it. Those most at risk even after being vaccinated won’t be as protected as somebody young, so who knows until there are treatments that work where we will go. You may see an extreme where people not vaccinated are banned from certain countries, you may be told unless you have your green pass you cannot enter a football stadium or a pub, again only history will tell. Unlikely in this country but you may just be told you have to have the vaccine, you will certainly be told that in some countries such as Russia, China and North Korea. What has worried me therefore is the information, which I may have misunderstood or maybe from somebody with a similar user name. Did I understand correctly from another thread regards only 8 beds being allocated for Covid in Manchester ? If so I would like to pass that to my MP as that means many English people will unnecessarily die from Covid. Again there was a comment on the come on Sarah that indicated the vaccine has only been in development for a few months, this as I understand it is not correct and some of the vaccines are not even a chemical ( if that’s the word ) they are an electric shock to stimulate certain parts of the body to fight Covid. Your views are respected by me as I have learnt to live with the virus, but I probably contribute 1/2 of what I used to contribute to the economy and that will remain the same until I have my injection. I no longer visit pubs and restaurants, I no longer go into shops for a quick spur of the moment visit to blow a tenner. I don’t travel to different places in my free time, and I don’t even pay £12 for a haircut, my wife does it. Unfortunately my view remains, that this Goverment has made poor decisions regards the suppression of the virus, and because of that the economy has gone t**s and many people with other diseases have died because the virus has not been suppressed. And before you think that’s political I have voted Tory all my life ( including last year ) but never again whilst Johnson is in charge. Hope that clears the air.

No, I would just like you to put that “give me freedom or give me death” BS to bed. We are talking about the UK’s future trading relationship with our neighbors, not a starting a war you moron.

You ALWAYS need to say less. 😉

Don’t forget the other scapegoat Rupp, who was very good tonight as well.

I've been, the families i saw tended to look after each other pretty well and the kids were fed. Real sense of community and togetherness. That despite a disgusting and unnecessary campaign of destruction from capitalist America that decimated the country. Cambodia is actually one of the worlds fastest growing economies as well. I didn't notice their government waste billions of tax payer money on contracts for their mates and then claim they can't afford to help either.

Watching those cloggers bought back painful memories of that ****house 1-0 loss to them just before the playoff finals. Absolute anti football- no idea how fans can support teams who play like that.

Just nice to see opposition fans slating him tbh. He must be doing something right.

Cantwell made the challenge which disoriented Stearman at Huddersfield leading to the winning goal. Vs Brum he was fouled for the sending off which seemed to break their concentration. He's an absolute pain in the a*se for the opposition and I'm very happy we still have him.

Perhaps if they learnt that to win a football match they have to cross the halfway line

You're literally the worst poster I've ever seen.

Klopp asking where was the VAR if Michael Oliver didn't see it....... Err.....it never happened. VAR only 'sees' things that no human being in 'real-time' could call; invents its own interpretation of the rules; helps encourage 'simulation' by endlessly playing some soft challenge over and over until a flailing finger can be shown to have brought the 12 stone 6'3" CF down in the box just to get the stats up - and line Bet 365's pockets. But can't be used to overturn an incorrect throw in, corner, rolling spot kick, or a ball over the goal line. Muppetry

What an amazing turnaround in terms of his performances and fans attitude towards him. Would be hilarious if he keeps it up and is then in the running for POTS given many on here were questioning if he had ANY footballing ability last season! Guess that proves that Farke/Webber have far better idea about player’s abilities than most of us on here.

reminded me of this famous commentary

This is why as supporters we really should give new players an actual chance. Bought with the view we may end up in the Championship through no fault of his own, and to his credit, he will be more than aware of the criticism he’s received but clearly has taken it like a water off a ducks back. It takes a certain kind of mentality to respond like that. Some killer through balls tonight, and quite incisive. Based on his performances thus far, he won’t be losing his place any time soon, and rightly so.

You normally do

I can’t see where it states the clubs would not compete in domestic leagues? It’s almost a revamp Champions League into a full Elite league for rich clubs to share the wealth between them. Only 5 English teams would be involved. The chief reason the big clubs want to cut the Premiership to 18 teams to play less games and more focus on this Elite league. I would be all for the big six as others to bog off permanently, I’m pretty sure this elite league would run out of favour. I know I certainly wouldn’t watch.

All I think that all of us want the most effective way out of the mire. We know what the experts proposed, we know what happened before and we know what does work. We also sadly see increasing numbers and spreading economically disastrous lockdowns chasing after them. Hopefully Tier 3 will at least slow it but it is not obvious how you exit tier 3 without a similar lockdown to last March. Endless otherwise until Spring ? If that's true them then the short sharper lockdown is likely to be the preferred choice and have more public support.

I saw some of the shaggies near me a few days ago. I'll give them a shot! Thanks Shrimper you're such a fun-guy!

Shaggy and Common

Their pain is my pleasure

It's an analogy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAke3P4hKZA&feature=youtu.be&t=29 Hope this clears things up Kirku 🙂

A few (lengthy) points on this. 1. On the article you’ve linked to: “Basically it concludes roughly CV risk of dying is about the same per age as your annual 'normal ' no covid risk (So if you have a 1% chance of dying from something else you would also have an extra 1% chance of dying from Covid).” The quote you’ve put in your post doesn’t say that. It says “being infected with covid” raises the risk. If you’re not infected, your risk doesn’t increase by that amount. The modelling further down your post is done on the basis the virus was left “completely unchallenged”, in which case it might (only might) infect 80 per cent of the population. On the basis we aren’t leaving it “completely unchallenged” and haven’t done since March, you can instantly chop chunks off that 600,000. The 200,000 deaths T referred to was based on the lockdowns we’ve had already. So further lockdowns = more deaths from collateral things as a result of lockdown. And T’s 200,00 deaths didn’t even take long term deaths from increased poverty into account. So we can bump that 200,000 up even if there are no further lockdowns, and bump it up again if we have additional lockdowns. The 600,000 vs 200,000 deaths argument suddenly not quite as convincing. Exactly why the other things need to start being taken more seriously. Point 2. When I referred to sleepwalking, this sort of response is basically what I meant. Not specifically aimed at you YF but generally the whole public. T posted a post about 200,000 people potentially dying. It got around twelve responses and not one of them talked about ways we might avoid hundreds of thousands of deaths. Rather than discuss trying to avoid 200,000 deaths caused as a result of lockdown policies, or the dozens of thousands (perhaps more) of deaths in young people medium to long term which my links refer to, the response was to find some statistics to try and in effect downplay the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people or show that they were somehow less important/ less urgent than covid deaths. T didn’t say we should let all old people die. He didn’t say we should scrap all restrictions. He said that people only seem focussed on covid deaths and not potentially hundreds of thousands of other deaths. And your responses rather support that opinion. This isn’t specific to this messageboard. The whole nation has become so scared that anything discussing anything other than the number of covid deaths that occurred yesterday is simply dismissed. How many times have we heard “follow the science”, but the people saying it don’t even bother to factor in “the science” relating to hundreds of thousands of deaths due to lockdown and the state of the economy for years to come? How many times did we hear the government failed to follow SAGE advice re lockdown? Then compare that to how many times people have mentioned other SAGE advisors warning about the long term health impacts that lockdown will have on the young. Sonyc says it’s a discussion and people haven’t got their heads in the sand, but it’s not a discussion. Any discussion (not just on here but generally in the public sphere) about anything other than covid deaths gets ignored and downplayed because covid deaths are the only thing that matter too often. As i said, extremely concerned that we are sleepwalking into a horrendous situation for millions of people, particularly young people, for years (possibly decades) to come. Point 3. On the wider point of avoiding nhs being overwhelmed, Sir Richard Leese commented recently that he is pretty shocked we still haven’t got proper mandatory shielding in place. Before VW tells me my grandma’s about to die again, Leese didn’t say we should have no other restrictions. He made the point that closing pubs and shops won’t alone stop the spread. Asking the most vulnerable to shield won’t alone stop the spread. They would however both help, but we’re currently only enforcing (or even asking people to follow) the one that will result in people losing jobs and health issues which arise from that. Yes, elderly and vulnerable will suffer from mental health issues as a result of shielding, but so will millions of others from losing jobs. Leese also made the point that whilst other restrictions are still needed to help curb the spread, it is still the case that the extremely large majority of deaths are elderly people, and average age of icu patient is retirement age (hospitalisations lower at c.60). So yes we need other things to help stop the spread as well, but shielding would significantly help reduce the number of hospital admissions. I’m not sure why we haven’t reintroduced this. Even in tier three shielding isn’t mandatory. Some will say it’s unfair to introduce shielding for, say, 85 year olds in areas with low rates of infection. But others will wonder which is more likely to lead to deaths - a 25 year old going to a covid secure place of work, or two 85 year olds meeting up indoors with their two school aged grandkids, son and daughter in law who have both been into work. Doesn’t have to be one of shielding or jobs - why not both?

I take the ones that are halfway through their life cycles. I always find they taste the best. Fried in Garlic and butter and Olive oil served on toast, nothing better after an early morning walk.

I know. My complaints are usually because people seem so certain about what will happen, good or bad. Nothing in football is certain.

1 GF, 13 GC, and still no points so I can only see them parking the bus. Did well against unbeaten Reading last night though, as it took over an hour for Reading to break the deadlock who ended the game with just 5 attempts, 1 on target whilst Wycombe achieved 10 attempts, 3 on target. Hopefully we will still manage to pick up 3 points from this game, but I think it will be similar to the recent fixtures against Derby and Birmingham

They weren’t going to win the league again, their squad is too weak, a couple injuries to key players shows that. I understand the payers frustration that keepers appear exempt from cards when they make dangerous challenges like that, it was really poor and much more a red card then Buendia’s elbow last year! But certainly Liverpool need to stop their whining it’s football and derby matches always have robust challenges.

Don't wish serious injury on any player at any club, but sheesh.................................... good job the poor little souls weren't in our dressing room last season when we had a never ending procession of injuries.

And just like that all the trolls crawled back under their bridge..............

My bad! Still, point stands I guess.

He paid more in taxes to the Chinese state than to his own country.

"Sadly none of this answers the questions as to how to stop the NHS (and by extension society and the overall economy) being overwhelmed much as per above if we try not to contain it. The most successful economies challenged by Covid have indeed fully suppressed the virus" And this makes the point rather well that you don't have an economy if you don't have health. Ergo, we have to control the pandemic so that we have a health service for all other health issues.

Your points made make a very valuable contribution TRF. The economic repurcussions are going to be severe. From my more mature age (...and I'm talking age here rather than what I've tried to gain in life experience and knowledge) point of view, I have two conflicting opinions: Firstly, for my own children and their future (and therefore read into this every other younger economically active person), I want them to flourish and not be laid off / made redundant. This is the main worry for me. I've worked 40 plus years to help people realise their potential in a variety of ways, into jobs, through new education, through psychotherapy, through better housing / welfare. It's natural therefore I want the economy open. Secondly, I enjoy life and have no wish for it to end (yet!) or for older grandparents either. I think therefore some posters are worried quite naturally (on a number of fronts and possibly number more than my two main concerns) and views are simply reflections of their current experiences. No-one is sticking their head in the sand but simply responding to events, policy changes. Nor is it just the UK government (and I'm certainly not an apologist) but globally countries are trying to handle things. So it's just debate. And keep posting evidence because it's interesting and it's more needed if you feel the majority on this thread want lockdowns (I don't believe at all that is the case though). Overall, we need to keep asking questions. When someone posts so authoritatively I'm someone who naturally tends to question things like that because I don't believe in fixed positions really. It's better to be open minded, questioning. Otherwise we simply head into civil war type territory like Brexit. Do keep posting links if you're minded.

Thought you all might like this if you want to talk about 'risk'. Note the paper is this September https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3259 Basically it concludes roughly CV risk of dying is about the same per age as your annual 'normal ' no covid risk (So if you have a 1% chance of dying from something else you would also have an extra 1% chance of dying from Covid). I've pulled out a little comment for the disbelievers. Good luck with an extra 600,000 deaths ! "This agreement between the estimated covid-19 risks and the average annual mortality rates suggests that, based on the figures provided by the Imperial College team in March 2020, being infected with SARS-CoV-2 contributes about a year’s worth of extra risk of dying for those aged over 20 and less than half this risk for those aged under 20. There is a simple reality check on this figure. Ferguson et al7 estimated that if the virus went completely unchallenged, around 80% of people would be infected and there would be around 510 000 deaths. So if everyone got infected we would presumably expect 510 000×100/80=637 500 deaths, which is fairly close to the “normal” annual total of around 616 000 deaths in the UK (2018)." Sadly none of this answers the questions as to how to stop the NHS (and by extension society and the overall economy) being overwhelmed much as per above if we try not to contain it. The most successful economies challenged by Covid have indeed fully suppressed the virus

And the binners got thumped too! A good evening all round

In fairness Birmingham sat back so far for so much of the game it was an easy night for our defenders and defensive midfielders. Infact they're probably not going to get an easier game.

Yes, they did a good job of being sh*t. 😉. On a serious note, I do not believe for a second that anyone didn't realise what their gameplan was. It was blatantly obvious from 5 minutes in.

I was wrong about Rupp. This was his best game so far and he has improved rapidly this season. If he can find a couple of goals or assists then he'll be the real deal.

😀 Please don't tell us you still believe the BBC isn't Lefty biased..