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You need to get with the programme CM. Modern day football is about being in the PL and getting past 40 points so you can do exactly the same next season. This enables you to get more tv money every year. It enables you to play an active part in the sky sports transfer window so that the tv money goes into a few more players pockets. And of course their agents. It will attract a stinking rich investor who can afford to give more money to players and their agents before they take possession of the stadium and training ground rendering the club worthless. It's about how many times you can get on TV at ridiculous kick off times that are suitable for sky customers but cause all kinds of grief to the clubs supporters. It's about paying a minimum of £30 to sit in the stadium watching the ref poke about in his ear for five minutes before you can celebrate a goal. Then after 6 or 7 years of that you can go back to the championship and struggle financially in a league that's alien to the clubs set up and not what this stinking rich owner signed up for. Far better than watching your team actually win trophies and Wembley finals and feeling a part of that success.

I think the first question you should ask is whether 'surviving in the Premier League' is the most important objective. For me it most definitely is not - I dislike the Premier League (for many reasons) and much prefer to watch the Championship, especially when we are in it. My main objective is to watch Norwich City play football, ideally exciting and entertaining football which is exactly what Farke has provided and Alex Neil too, for that matter. The Premier League has nothing to do with sport, it is a business providing football based entertainment and if you think your club is participarting in a sporting competition whilst in the Premier League then you are always going to be disappointed. It is first, second and always a business and it is run in the interests not of football supporters but the business owners. Of course I want to see NCFC do well and when we do very well in the Championship then we have to put up with a stay in the Premiership, but its exciting when we go up and it can often be pretty exciting when we go down. Do I want to play every year in Premiership mid-table mediocrity, watching a bunch of mercenaries who have no real link to the club and are there for no reason other than the money?? No I ***** well don't - give me yo-yo every time.

Of course I don't like the results from FPTP. A system of election that gives a party almost two thirds of seats with vary more than a third of votes is inherently unlikeable for anyone who really supports democracy. You only need to look at the EU elections to see that a list system generally delivers seats to votes within a single digit percentile margin of error. And in doing so it maintains and in some ways enhances the link between. What it would achieve would be legion. 1) A much, much closer correlation between votes and seats/influence 2) A freer electorate, whereby voters feel less need to vote tactically and can select a party that aligns with their views, rather than feeling compelled to pick from one of two or three whom they don't actually like 3) Less influence from lobbyists. Big business in the Tories and trade union s in Labour will see their influence diminished as their puppets can no longer bank on getting majority governments 4) An end to safe seats which sees only a minority of seats affect the national result, thereby rendering millions of votes worthless 5) Less tribalism in politics as parties would be forced to learn to collaborate and compromise 6) Westminster would be less able to ignore factors that give rise to extremist elements as extreme parties would get a voice in Parliament if they reached the sorts of levels the BNP have in the past 7) As 35% of voters can no longer grant a majority, parties that only appeal to one or two demographics won't have great prospects, they'll be forced into more universally beneficial manifestos rather than ones that sweep to power on the back of people aged 60+ What's FPTP got going for it? It used to have the delivers strong governments argument, but try saying that with a straight face. Coalitions don't work? Politically I despised the Cameron/Clegg government but it functioned perfectly well. Constituency link? See above. What else has it got going for it? So no, there's just a smidge more to it than not liking the results, which is a perfectly legitimate opinion for any fan of democracy, as opposed to the facade we currently have.

You need an extra long guitar strap, leather jacket and stand with your feet about six feet apart to be totally in command the JJB way. Nowadays I need an extra long nap, incontinence pad and sensible shoes to be totally in command of KG way. But I still have a vivid imagination of course.

As long as the string doesn't break, I'm fairly content with the Yo-Yo.

Nice and Sleazy. That's what the Stranglers said. Does it every time.

Put that on in the car and turn it up, the keyboard solo bouncing between speakers is brilliant 😁

PR, it should do what it says on the tin - it should be proportional, not "sort of" proportional, only as far as you get more representation but we won't give represenation to people whose views you don't like. As for the constituency link it is the biggest red herring out there. It is only important because we don't have meaningful local democracy. If decision making is devolved to its lowest possible level it is no longer required. That is one Brexit argument that was always kind of persuasive.

We want to be a 'Top 25' club as per the noises coming out of the club. Anyone that doesn't understand why that isn't 'Top 17' club is probably missing the point.

One of the best posts i've read in a while; was starting to lose faith in this forum what with a couple of posters in particular following me about without anything constructive to say.

There are two types of people on this Earth, those who have a favourite Telegraph writer and those that don't. Or to abbreviate, c*nts and non-c*nts.

I'm really pleased that now the dust has settled AN gets a lot of credit for what he did here, and for what he is doing at Preston. Neil was a major part of one the greatest days I've ever had as a Fan. Unlike the bell end Lambert who has thrown his entire legacy in the bin (no pun intended) Alex will be remembered fondly. Scotland job? Surely AN wouldn't be that stupid would he?

According to Whoscored he played 75 passes, 32 went forwards, 43 went backward. So 57% of the passes he played went backward. In comparison, Aarons played 55 passes, 21 forwards and 34 backward. So 39% forwards and 61% backward.

Of the message boards , tw@tter, FB , etc... that's what I told myself after the Watford debacle. I was too dissapointed and down and I didn't want to read the negative cr@p ... although I thought I would agree with many of it. I think we will get relegated tbh , but I hope we won't. Yesterday I was talking to a few m8s and they said "if you want to be a Norwich supporter , you will have to accept the yoyo'ing..." There won't be any big money any time soon and the financial model is good for the club in the longer run. We've got a good youth setup... I suppose this is right and I can't see myself supporting another club. One of the guys is a Southampton fan and he says their club has been through hell too... Yet he thinks the Chinese owner saved the club and he is happy. I said I understood , yet I don't think I would like one owning NCFC. He said the money is the only way to survive a longer time in the PL , he doesn't like it either ... yet he thinks it is unavoidable. What do you posters on here think about the "accepting the yoyo'ing" statement?

I will be there.

Cheers Nigel !!

I'm sure Benny Tillo would know. 😉

This is such a good post. It's true that stays in the Championship can be longer than expected tho', I still remember those T-Shirts printed in the Chase era reading "On loan to Division 1 for one season only". Didn't look so clever when we were stuck there till Worthy got us promoted but nowadays I think we know how hard it is to get out of the Champs. I guess the difference is that playing in the Prem has fun moments (winning at Spurs or Man City or Man Utd etc) but realistically the best we could hope for is a one-off really good season where we get in the top 7, anything beyond that would be a Leicester-style one-off and I never expect to see that repeated. Whereas in the Champs, you can have seasons like last year when we were truly amazing. I do remember QPR fans whinging when they were in the Prem that they wished they were back in the Champs so they could be winning all the time, obviously it's not worked out like that and I think we know better. The difference is the Champs is a proper sporting league which anyone can win including us, unlike the Prem which is a total closed shop.

With a 32 inch inside leg , I'm too vertically challenged to even attempt putting my feet that far apart.

All very true @PurpleCanary. The problem with democracy in the modern world is that most people arn't qualified/informed/intelligent enough to make complex political decisions. Added to this most people, quite rightly, are not really interested in the main, they have lives to live and would really like to be left in peace to live them. So unless pushed to extremis there is a very small cohort who are both interested and clever enough to address the complex problems the country faces. Our problem is there are not many of these standing in the upcoming election.

Ditto Franko. Mate of mine saw them this summer in the pi$$ing rain,they opened with 'always the sun' and sure enough the clouds parted and the yellow orb shone brightly on the throng. One of my fave bands ever.

Wasn’t Ashley Wards Mrs in a cornflakes advert or something ?

You could say Meh on your ballot paper whilst fulfilling your civic duty?

Also really love the long version of Walk on by.....8 mins or so of pure guitar, keyboard and vocal magnificence.

I don't quite know what the penalties might be for not voting but I believe ALL elections should be compulsory. 1828 was when it became possible for non land owners to vote and exactly another century before all women could vote. When I think that went on before and the lengths that some went to to achieve universal suffrage makes we want to punish those who can't be bothered.

Postponed Til

Exactly , Forty Seveno. As far as I can gather from the various statements since SW took over that is exactly what the plan is. The management were as surprised as any rational fan that we did so well last season, and have contingency plans in place to deal with both survival and relegation.

age or IQ ? People, 4 or 5 people.

Sorry that is not proportional, if we have PR we have to accept that some parties we may not like get representation. Also the mere fact we have Regions by defintion makes the system less proportional.

After yesterdays terrible 'photo ops for Johnson he's had a visit to a bakery cancelled due to a protest outside the venue. He seems to do well when he visits schools that have very young children, maybe he connects with them on an intellectual level. Is it time the Tories considered lowered the voting to 4 or 5 to capitalise on Johnson's new demographic?

Thought it was a bit of waste of my time to watch it, so TT gets "massive respect" for ordering a Cortado with coconut milk! Wow. I have to admit I gave up on it after about 20ish mins, so maybe I missed the interesting insightful bits. What I did glean from it was....pretty attractive Ukrainian woman tries to make it in US of A , didn't go so well so returns to Germany and marries a footballer.

What an inspirational lady. Thoroughly enjoyed the interview and especially her bringing some insight into her's and Tom's back story, which shows the battles footballers - and everyone else - have in their lives and careers. Maybe we could see some other interviews with other players strong wives/girlfriends which can dispel the footballers wives stereotypes that we so often see portrayed in the media. It all helps connecting players with fans - they are human and the more we can understand their stories, the better it is. So good job TNC guys, this was a great idea and Anna is great too in every way. Tom is a lucky boy, hope he goes from strength to strength this season on the back of having so much support behind the scenes.

There's no perfect system, otherwise everyone would have it. But FPTP is about as far from perfect as any other system. It's in the same ballpark as the US's electoral college.

Congratulations Dr Greenthumb and Ward 3. Seems hogesar is indeed a snowflake, a pathetic condescending one at that

My dream outcome in December, though I concede it is very much a dream at this stage, is a Lab/Lib coalition in which the Lib Dems demand PR as the price to support to Labour manifesto. No referendum, just a Great Reform Act II that passes a Regional PR List system that maintains some sort of regional representation whilst have a proportional parliament.

The trouble is that the right leaning voter coalesces around a single party, by and large. The left however have always split their support, (Labour, Lib Dem, Nationalist, Green) which in a first past the post system is a major disadvantage. Why Labour haven't come round to supporting PR I have never understood as it would produce an almost permanent left of center coalition. This year, with the Brexit Party being around, it looked like that mold might be broken but recent events mean we seem to be reverting to type.

In General Elections, save for 2015 where The Right polled a fraction over 50%, this is untrue

I certainly see a problem with nuclear but it’s a question of how do you get a realistic and rapid approach to reducing carbon emissions. I’m not advocating nuclear on its own, far from it, but it should not be disregarded as a component in a wider energy strategy.

Did Hogesar take you up on your offer for a chat and pint ?

I think some are waking up to the conmen.

Why should it be bad luck. Much the same as claiming last seasons promotion was good luck. Both ridiculous. Our record of being promoted and seasons spent in the PL is better than the majority of other comparable clubs. That's surely not failure?

I do appreciate what your saying but could you answer why we look like having 3 instant relegations from 4 promotions ? Bad luck or just not good enough for this league ? Being in the Premiership should help the finances not hinder them . That said it really helps to stay in it for more than 1 season. No one was expecting a mass spend during the summer but most thought Norwich would give themselves a helping hand and sign a couple of quality players.

Sheffield Utd? What on earth have they done to even come close to comparison to our success. Bournemouth? They've now had 4 consecutive PL seasons. What have they challenged for? What silverware have they looked like winning? This is just one small snapshot in time. For every Bournemouth type there are 5 QPRs and in a few years time one of the QPRs will have replaced Bournemouth. Thats how it has to be with over 40 clubs who believe their rightful place is the Premier League. We are outperforming the majority of comparable clubs. And that's the gamble. Because if you risk that there's only a 1 in 5 chance you will get better owners and be more successful. The odds would be better if we could add more money to what we have but the only way we can do that is make the current owners richer.

I'm surprised you use Sheffield United as an example. We've had more Premier League seasons than them in recent times. I don't think it's anything to do with different personality types, or fans ambition etc. It just depends what side of the fence you sit on and nothing more. If you think that "oh with a bit of investment we'll be a Prem regular" then of course, that's your prerogative. But there's more evidence that this isn't the case - the odds are against us. On the basis that there are 20 or more richer owners of clubs below us in the football pyramid already - the concern is that with different owners we might fall further than with our current owners who, for all their lack of wealth, seem to have out performed so many other owners with wealth. When changing owners we have to weigh up risk / reward. The problem here for most fans is that our existing owners, again despite having no money in football terms, have still delivered up and above that of many richer owners. When you also consider that our current owners are fans and very much custodians of the club too, we know we're in relatively safe hands. They're close with the fans, with the community - as a club we do so much community driven things. Of course, that's not to say a new owner might not do the same, heck, they could do even more - but what are the chances? How many examples are there of rich owners doing exactly that? Maybe three, four, five at a push? Feels much more like a pipe dream to me, especially when you consider we've clearly had no genuine, hard interest in our club from anyone in recent years.

Thank you for your constructive insight as always King Canary!!!

Surely all City supporters would want to be a little more competitive in the top flight? But how much more? Do you mean so that we aren't relegated every year? That is fair enough but losing twice as many as you win every season doesn't sound too exciting to me. Yes you are seeing some of the "stars" of the game. Yes you get a substantial amount of money for belonging. But how much does it cost to run a football club in the EPL? Why aren't Burnley, Brighton, Bournemouth buying £50M players? And don't you only get 19 home games not 23. Would the cry begin for even greater investment if we finished 14th for five seasons in a row? I have to ask these questions as I do not crave what others do.

That’s what he said but nothing’s appealed as yet

Remember it is copy and paste David Freezer you are talking about. Useless beyond words.

Keith worried = me reassured. Clearly we're in good hands.

How many of.. Leeds Forest Sheff Wed Bristol C QPR Charlton Hull Birmingham Cardiff Derby Reading Blackburn Middlesbrough Ipswich Sunderland Sheff Utd Coventry Portsmouth Bolton Have spent 5 of the last 10 years in the PL? We are there again this season, just months after you said we had no ambition to get there. How did that even happen? Is ambition only measured by someone elses wealth?